illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels... - Ford Inside News Community
 62Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 03:29 AM Thread Starter
2b2
Mercury C557
 
2b2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: N NW of Atlantis (Reno)
Posts: 20,023
Blog Entries: 6
illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

Nine out of 10 new diesel cars exceed EU pollution limits..
theGuardian.com

Damian Carrington
14 September 2015


Nine out of 10 new diesel cars break new EU pollution limits when tested on roads rather than test tracks, according to a new report.

On average, the cars emit seven times the permitted level of NOx gasses, with the worst car producing 22 times the legal limit. Models from every major motor manufacturer breached the limit when they were evaluated in real-world conditions.

From 1 September, new diesel cars in the EU have had to comply with emissions rules called “Euro 6”. However, carmakers can use a whole range of techniques to ensure that their cars perform far better under test conditions than when driven by ordinary drivers.

These include stripping components from the car to reduce weight, using special lubricants, over-inflating tyres and using super-smooth test tracks. The same techniques are used to boost the apparent fuel efficiency of vehicles.

The report, from sustainable transport group Transport & Environment (T&E), compiled recent data to show that when diesel vehicles are tested in normal driving conditions they emit much greater levels of NOx gases. NOx gases and other vehicle-related pollution are estimated to cause half a million premature deaths each year in the EU.

The T&E report also found that motor manufacturers often sell less polluting models of the same cars in the US, where emissions rules are stricter. This is achieved by including devices that capture pollution and cost a few hundred euros...

...In April, the UK’s supreme court ordered the government to tackle the UK’s air pollution, which has been in breach of EU limits for years. Proposals from ministers released on Saturday include improving public transport and creating low-emission zones in a number of cities, perhaps following the lead of central London where most diesel drivers will have to pay a £12.50 pollution charge from 2020.

There are plans to introduce a new on-road test that will measure the real-world emissions of diesel cars, but it will not apply to all new EU cars until 2018 at the earliest. Carmakers have argued that on-road testing should be delayed until 2020...

"The perception that a Lincoln is less, is more important than the reality that Lincoln is more than enough" SP1966
mini .Pdf brochures for ALL 2018 models
Navi info/pix interiors & interiors & wheels & paint swatches &
more...
2b2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 10:24 AM
FIN Staff Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,343
Re: illegal pollution: 90% NEW Yurp Diesels WAY over Limits in RealWorld

I think automakers should have gone the extra step and did on-road testing to ensure their diesels were in compliance. But I am sure they all did, and choose the easier/less expensive route to get new diesels to market now, while still working to improve for when they got caught.

But until the tricks/loopholes are closed in the requirements, there won't be a viable solution.
Bloggin is online now  
post #3 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-15-2015, 10:26 AM
Ford Falcon
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,798
Re: illegal pollution: 90% NEW Yurp Diesels WAY over Limits in RealWorld

Wait, so the US regulators were right? NOOO?!
DetroitBORG is offline  
 
post #4 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-18-2015, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
2b2
Mercury C557
 
2b2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: N NW of Atlantis (Reno)
Posts: 20,023
Blog Entries: 6
illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

what's good for the Yurp is good for the Yanker...

EPA accuses VW of cheating on emission rules
CNNMoney

September 18, 2015


Diesel cars from Volkswagen and Audi cheated on clean air rules by including software that made the cars' emissions look cleaner than they actually were, according to federal and California regulators.

The regulators say that the software on the cars turns on emission controls only when it detects that the car was being tested.

"The effectiveness of these vehicles' pollution emissions control devices is greatly reduced during all normal driving situations," said the Environmental Protection Agency's notice to the company. "This results in cars that meet emissions standards in the laboratory or testing station, but during normal operation, emit nitrogen oxides at up to 40 times the standard."

There are nearly 500,000 of these diesel cars on U.S. roads. The models include the VW Jetta, the Beetle and the Golf from model years 2009 through 2015, the Passat from 2014-2015 as well as the Audi A3, model years 2009-2015. The Audi luxury brand is owned by Volkswagen Group...

...the EPA has ordered VW to recall the cars and fix the violation. No recall has yet been announced.

VW said it is cooperating with the investigation.

The EPA did not say how much VW would ultimately be fined for this infraction...

...Representatives from EPA and the California Air Resources Board, which did the testing that uncovered the problem, would not say whether a change a software to correct the emissions violation would have a negative impact on the cars' performance or fuel economy...

"The perception that a Lincoln is less, is more important than the reality that Lincoln is more than enough" SP1966
mini .Pdf brochures for ALL 2018 models
Navi info/pix interiors & interiors & wheels & paint swatches &
more...
2b2 is offline  
post #5 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-18-2015, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
2b2
Mercury C557
 
2b2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: N NW of Atlantis (Reno)
Posts: 20,023
Blog Entries: 6
Re: illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

more:

BREAKING:
VW, Audi TDI Diesel Cars Had 'Defeat Device' That Violated EPA Rules, 500K Cars Recalled

GreenCarReports

John Voelcker
Sep 18, 2015


...Other carmakers that chose to sell diesels after the regulations took effect in 2008 used urea injection and more complex emission-control systems to control nitrous-oxide emissions than Volkswagen.

The system requires a separate tank holding a specific formulation of urea liquid that is injected into the aftertreatment system at certain times.

For its small four-cylinder TDI diesel, VW's vehicles were able to meet the EPA limits without the urea-injection--the sole carmaker to be able make that claim...

- - - - - - - - -

EPA: Volkswagen cheated on emissions standards
MarkeWatch

By Claudia Assis
Published: Sept 18, 2015


...Since civil penalties for each car in violation run about $35,500, Volkswagen could be on hook for more than $17 billion in penalties plus other fines...

- - - - - - - - -

EPA accuses Volkswagen, Audi of evading emission laws
USA Today

Nathan Bomey
September 18, 2015

...Volkswagen admitted to investigators that it had installed the defeat device, the EPA said...
...What's more, the scandal could expose Volkswagen to lawsuits and penalties for marketing its cars under the "Clean Diesel" moniker. An hour after the EPA announcement, the automaker's website still contained the "Clean Diesel" branding.
About 20% of Volkswagen's vehicle sales are diesel engines...

- - - - - - - - -

EPA: Volkswagen used software to skirt emissions rules
Detroit Free Press

By Greg Gardner
September 18, 2015


...Affected diesel models include:
• Jetta (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Beetle (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Audi A3 (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Golf (model years 2009 – 2015)
• Passat (model years 2014-2015)...

"The perception that a Lincoln is less, is more important than the reality that Lincoln is more than enough" SP1966
mini .Pdf brochures for ALL 2018 models
Navi info/pix interiors & interiors & wheels & paint swatches &
more...
2b2 is offline  
post #6 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-18-2015, 11:47 PM Thread Starter
2b2
Mercury C557
 
2b2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: N NW of Atlantis (Reno)
Posts: 20,023
Blog Entries: 6
Re: illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

from snippets I saw on TV,
VW is going to have to turn the emission-controls ON-fulltime
so
all those people will see their diesels' mpg DROP

( ex: from 40mpg to 30mpg ? )

I wonder
-- how many will get a new vehicle asap
-- how much the (resale) value will fall
-- how low the take rate of new UNefficient VWs will be

"The perception that a Lincoln is less, is more important than the reality that Lincoln is more than enough" SP1966
mini .Pdf brochures for ALL 2018 models
Navi info/pix interiors & interiors & wheels & paint swatches &
more...
2b2 is offline  
post #7 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 12:24 AM
FIN Staff Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,343
Re: illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

"Under federal law, the EPA can levy a maximum possible fine of $37,500 per vehicle, EPA officials said on a conference call with reporters today, meaning VW and Audi face potential fines of up to $18 billion for the alleged violations."

"And in what could be the first of many suits, owners of Volkswagen and Audi models with diesel engines late Friday filed a class-action lawsuit against VW. The suit, filed in California, accuses Volkswagen of fraudulent concealment, false advertising and violating consumer rights laws."

"Vehicle owners will suffer loss of vehicle value due to Volkswagen’s future recalls and degrading of performance characteristics such as horsepower and fuel efficiency in order to make vehicles meet EPA standards," the suit says.

"The tinkering that Volkswagen will have to do by law to fix these vehicles will almost certainly degrade the performance to less than what Volkswagen claimed when it originally sold these cars,” said Steve Berman, a class action attorney in Seattle who brought the suit and has filed similar, successfully cases against Toyota and Hyundai.

"The alleged violations also come just days before VW plans to reveal a significantly updated 2016 Passat midsize sedan to journalists at an event in New York City on Monday"
Bloggin is online now  
post #8 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-19-2015, 12:37 AM
FIN Staff Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,343
Re: illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2 View Post
from snippets I saw on TV,
VW is going to have to turn the emission-controls ON-fulltime
so
all those people will see their diesels' mpg DROP

( ex: from 40mpg to 30mpg ? )

I wonder
-- how many will get a new vehicle asap
-- how much the (resale) value will fall
-- how low the take rate of new UNefficient VWs will be
All VW and Audi models with the 2.0L Diesel engine will have to be retested after the software 'switch' is removed, and get new EPA emissions and mpg ratings. Along with Consumer reports that is holding their recommendation of VW and Audi models with diesel engines until 'clean' models are available for testing.

To removed 40 times the emissions, the mpg has to drop 10mpg or more. With city mpg taking the greatest hit.

I am waiting to hear about the 'stop sale' for all diesel models from VW and Audi, since they have to rectify the vehicles with the EPA to get new performance and mpg estimates. A new window sticker has to be required for all diesel models now on deals lots that need to be 'fixed'.

Did a screenshot of each model diesel specs page with hp and mpg to see if anything changes overnight. Because right now it's clear the data is wrong.

2015 A3 fuel economy data is missing from the Audi site(TBA), but it's still on the EPA site.
Bloggin is online now  
post #9 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-20-2015, 10:59 PM
FIN Staff Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,343
Re: illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

"A Volkswagen spokesman on Sunday said the auto maker halted the sale of all 2015 and 2016 models containing the four-cylinder 2.0 liter TDI engine. The EPA investigation affects cars sold since 2008. The company hasn’t issued a recall, the spokesman said."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswag...ons-1442754877
Bloggin is online now  
post #10 of 254 (permalink) Old 09-20-2015, 11:18 PM
FIN Staff Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,343
Re: illegal pollution: US-cheating 'trumps' Yurp Diesels...

http://www.latimes.com/business/auto...918-story.html

"The state Air Resources Board became suspicious after hearing about emissions problems from automotive pollution analysts in Europe, Corey said. Additionally, researchers at West Virginia University, working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, a nongovernmental organization, raised questions about emissions levels."

Something tells me that European countries are doing their own VW diesel testing looking for the same software 'cheat' used in the US.

"VW programmed the engines to detect certification tests over many years and through three generations of engines, said Dave Sullivan, manager of product analysis at consulting firm AutoPacific Inc."

"In addition to fines, VW will likely face consumer lawsuits on two fronts, said Steve Berman, a class action attorney in Seattle who has successfully brought such cases against Toyota, Hyundai among others.

Berman said he is already preparing a lawsuit on behalf of a Marin County, Calif. owner who bought a VW because it was marketed as a clean car and “now they find out it was polluting the environment at 40 times standards.”

VW also will face what is known as a “diminished value” lawsuit because the vehicles are likely to lose a portion of their resale value because of the problem, he said."

And this is not just a simple software fix for VW/Audi.....

“They will have to retool the emissions system, and that will hurt the performance of the car,” Berman said."

"But the automaker and regulators may have trouble getting consumers to bring their cars into get fixed — especially if the fix decreases performance or fuel economy, the main selling points for the cars."

Owners should have X number of days to have the emissions fixed or their tag is revoked, since the vehicle never passed the emissions testing in the first place. Then again, when they consumer brings in the vehicle for it's next emissions test, it will fail without being fixed by VW. I am sure CA is looking into how to make this happen.

40 times the emissions legal limit is no joke. Especially in CA that is the Hybrid and EV capital of the US.

VW/Audi just lost the CA market. Going forward from yesterday, driving a VW or Audi diesel, no matter what diesel engine, especially in CA, will be frowned upon, whether it never needed to be fixed, or if it's 'fixed' or not.

The public won't know which VW or Audi diesel models have the 1.8L or 2.0 or any other diesel engine....

VW/Audi Diesel = Dirty Diesel 40 times the legal limit.
Bloggin is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Tags
90%, diesels, illegal, limits, pollution, realworld, trumps, uscheating, yurp

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Inside News Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome