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: A new full size sedan for Ford? Does Ford need it?



falcon lover
10-05-2007, 06:37 AM
The Phanter platform (Crown Victoria,Town car and Grand Marquis) is 28 years old! Is time for a new Crown Victoria,Marquis,Town Car? Or a new full size sedan ? Unibody or BOF? FWD or RWD? The new Taurus/Sable/MK S is enough for this segment ( large sedans)? V8 or V6 ?? 4 door Sedan alone or 4 and 2 door sedan, plus some kind of wagon?

igor
10-05-2007, 06:54 AM
RWD Unitbody low-volume full-size sport sedan is coming in 2011

I just hope they drop the Crown Victoria name and use Falcon or Interceptor .

Igor

SobeSVT
10-05-2007, 06:55 AM
The Phanter platform (Crown Victoria,Town car and Grand Marquis) is 28 years old! Is time for a new Crown Victoria,Marquis,Town Car? Or a new full size sedan ? Unibody or BOF? FWD or RWD? The new Taurus/Sable/MK S is enough for this segment ( large sedans)? V8 or V6 ?? 4 door Sedan alone or 4 and 2 door sedan, plus some kind of wagon?

I guess that some of your question are answered by modern car history.


It would probably use unibody construction. At this point a BOF substitute would be unacceptable.
It would have to be RWD, otherwise it would just be another Taurus.
Very likely it would offer a V8 AND a V6.
It would probably be a sedan although they should explore a coupe version or a Thunderbird version.



RWD Unitbody low-volume full-size sport sedan is coming in 2011

I just hope they drop the Crown Victoria name and use Falcon or Interceptor .

Igor
For the love of God. Not Falcon, that name brings back memories of smaller cars. It fact it was the first small American Ford ever. Falcon would have been the perfect name for the Fusion.

This baby HAS to be a Fairlane. I thought that was the reason the didn't use that name for the Flex.

falcon lover
10-05-2007, 07:17 AM
I guess that some of your question are answered by modern car history.


It would probably use unibody construction. At this point a BOF substitute would be unacceptable.
It would have to be RWD, otherwise it would just be another Taurus.
Very likely it would offer a V8 AND a V6.
It would probably be a sedan although they should explore a coupe version or a Thunderbird version.



For the love of God. Not Falcon, that name brings back memories of smaller cars. It fact it was the first small American Ford ever. Falcon would have been the perfect name for the Fusion.

This baby HAS to be a Fairlane. I thought that was the reason the didn't use that name for the Flex.



Fairlane is a great name.....but Galaxie is a better choice for this car! Or LTD

falcon lover
10-05-2007, 07:20 AM
I agree with coupe version.... the return of the Thunderbird? I hope it will happen soon

wingsnut
10-05-2007, 08:11 AM
If it is low volume, it should be a hot name like interceptor

Logans Run
10-05-2007, 09:47 AM
ThunderBolt for sedan

If this is a unit body, low volume sport sedan, it would not be a replacement for the panther.
They should keep the panther line running just for police/limo/taxi.

2b2
10-05-2007, 12:25 PM
...I just hope they drop the Crown Victoria name...



Or as I call it the "Hapsburg Tiara" :p< click (http://www.micklebring.com/bml/images/victoria66brithday.jpg) for full effect

Though I really question whether the Ford-brand needs a car larger than the Taurus/500 for now
IF they do, I agree with FalconLover.... GALAXIE or LTD (Or both - trim-levels ya know; Galaxie=sport, LTD=Lux)

Falcon >> stretched-Mustang sportsedan
Thunderbird >> slightly larger sportsedan/entry-LuxSport (got a TopSecret not-coupe-not-sedan-not-Opera-doors solution)
Interceptor >> not sure it's a good name for a car but would be fine for a trim-level OR ENGINE!!! (they dropped Hurricane and aren't sure about BOSS, right?)
Fairlane >> used-to-be the second-rate model, sounds like a garden/tea party location to me.
Thunderbolt >> already got a perfectly fine Thunder name & sounds like InternationalRescue to me
___________http://www.moviecitynews.com/static_images/images/2004/200x200/thunderbirds_go.jpg
___________maybe it's my Fomoco orientation but I don't think of marionettes when I hear "Thunderbird"

for BOF-related ideas, see the TC thread (http://www.fomoconews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1327)

escapen
10-06-2007, 06:19 PM
Just as the 427 concept spawned the overall look of the fusion, i think that interceptor concept could just be brought down to more realistic proportions and be excellent flagship for Ford above the taurus. A completly different skinned Mercury could be called Mauder (sp)or even Marquis to hopefully pump some excitment into that lineup.
I think the V6 would be great like the Pontiac G8 is getting as a entry level engine, but if they build a mercury, just make it a V8 only vehicle
As for a name, I think Fairlane or Interceptor, (i love the Galxie idea, but it could be confusing with one over seas and also having duplicate fusions)

jsaylor
10-06-2007, 07:39 PM
Ford needs a new, large rwd platform to underpin a variety of cars. Among them....

1: A new, full size, rwd Ford (I personally prefer the name Galaxie for this one) ideally in 4-door sedan, 2-door fastback coupe, 2-door convertible, and 4-door station wagon guise. Long, low, and sexy styling combining luxury and class with enough sport to keep things interesting. All this without compromising the real purpose of a large car, comfort, should be the target. And yes, foir the doubters, wagons can be sexy. Base engine should be a 'low pressure' turbo Duratec V6 that emphasizes a broad, flat torque band. (this kind of car is the ideal place for that engine IMO) A mid range V8 or two above that with a fire breathing 7.0L Boss at the top of the range to project the appropriate image and I'd say Ford would have the right idea. A turbo diesel V8 wouldn't break my heart either, although the same would almost certainly be pricey and a low volume piece.

2: The next generation Ford Flex. I hate the name, but I love the concept...would be even better on a platform like the above. Engine offerings should be identical to the Galaxie with AWD heavily emphasized as an option.

3: A new flagship Lincoln sedan called Continental (what else?). In terms of style, size, and attitude Bentley's execution of the Arnage sedan is about as close as any modern automobile comes to what a proper full size Lincoln should be IMO. Of course, Lincoln has a wonderful history (think 60's, 50's, and 30's in particular) full of fantastic styling all their own, so no outside influence is necessary. Appointments must be first class beating the imports by building a superior luxury car that is thoroughly American. Base engine here needs to be a V8 without question and Lincoln really needs to whip up a V12 version of the Duratec for something like this.

The most exclusive versions need to possess power that meets or beats the best in class which means turbo or supercharging without question. Turbo-diesel V8 and V12 options would be welcome as well offering great torque at the cost of a little less guilt and could find a home in several other FoMoCo vehicles making it a worthwhile exercise. While large this should be a car to be driven. A lwb version which would be appropriate to drive or be driven in would be a natural fit into the range as well.

While obviously not a volume car for Lincoln (that could be left to a smaller line of Lincoln Zephyrs) the entire Continental line would be about presence, style, luxury, and performance. Moving this car in the same kind of numbers that mercedes moves the S Class seems more than realistic and would make for a good target IMO.

4. A large Lincoln Continental Mark coupe based on the Continental but possessing a far sportier attitude. In terms of size and proportions the Mk9 concept was very close to what this car should be, if not spot on, and the styling wasn't half bad either. An expensive, low volume car meant to be the Lincoln flagship model a V12 engine should probably be standard here. A retractable hartop is a natural here too.

5. A new Navigator, in standard and lwb trim. Engine options identical to the Continental sedan lineup sales of this model might rival, if not beat, those of the Continental if the suv market stays level. An optional V12 would certainly put a hurting on Caddy's Escalade. And unibody construction would give the Lincoln NVH characteristics and packaging that the Caddy couldn't hope to match at a lower weight. Important note...while car based this truck has to look like a luxury truck and not an amorphous crossover.

...IMO the above spreads the platform nicely across the Ford range. While this platform would certainly find it's biggest market in the US markets like Australia, China, and the Middle East would almost certainly welcome these large American cars in decent numbers too creating a viable export market.

wingsnut
10-07-2007, 05:53 AM
Several new engine programs have had their engineering assumptions/targets changed to now focus more on improved FE and emissions. On one particular engine I recall a 25HP drop, based on this. CAFE is changing many things. I am sure that Ford is not the only one doing this either. It is the world we now live in.

jsaylor
10-07-2007, 12:58 PM
Several new engine programs have had their engineering assumptions/targets changed to now focus more on improved FE and emissions. On one particular engine I recall a 25HP drop, based on this. CAFE is changing many things. I am sure that Ford is not the only one doing this either. It is the world we now live in.

I don't disagree fundamentally, but to be blunt this kind of cycle is the world we have lived in since the early 1970's and I would hope that this would be the first time that Detroit doesn't over-react. Frankly, with large cars like this smaller engines often don't help very much. For example: GM's large, fwd V8 models do as well or better than most brands smaller engined fwd models, and they would be even better if they used transmissions with a greater number of gears. This isn't surprising for a number of reasons, but in a large rwd Ford a twin turbo V6 as a base model and a well executed V8 around 5.2-5.8L positioned above that is likely to be as fuel efficient a duo of mainstream engine offerings as anything else you might slide under the hood.

As for large luxury cars like the Mercedes S Class or the Lincoln Continental I mention above, these are low volume pieces that are, for the most part, always going to be consumers of large amounts of gasoline relative to the rest of the automotive world. Diesel versions and hybrids will help to improve this, but eventually any tricks applied here will trickle into the rest of the automotive lineup and these cars will once again be gas guzzlers when measured against the norm...and after some time the norm is always what bthey end up measuring these against. High gas prices or not customers of such cars seem largely unconcerned with the same anyway, and history tells us that epa standards are unlikely to pose any long term threat to this kind of car primarily because consumers want them badly enough for auto makers to find a way to build them.

The only real choice here is to build these cars with the knowledge that they aren't going to be the most fuel efficient vehicles on earth, compensating for the same in one of several possible ways, or to avoid these markets altogether. I would hope that Ford is wise enough to want offerings in every viable market and that they wont let new epa standards be the next excuse for surrendering market share to foreign companies.

wingsnut
10-07-2007, 03:21 PM
jsaylor,
of course Ford is working very hard on fuel efficient engines, transmissions and other technologies. They already offer more 6-speeds than anyone else. Focus is better than Civic, Corolla and Cobalt in FE. The Taurus is more efficient than the Impala too. Also, the V8 FWD Impala SS is rated at 16/24, and not "about the same" as the FWD Taurus' fuel economy of 18/28. There is a big difference there, and adding gears to the Chevy would only add about 1mpg to hwy. Ford is not sitting still with technology and has plans for much more improvements in FE and Emissions. They are already ahead of GM & Chrysler in those targets and they plan on taking as much market share back as they can.

jsaylor
10-07-2007, 06:22 PM
Of course Ford is working very hard on fuel efficient engines, transmissions and other technologies. They already offer more 6-speeds than anyone else. Focus is better than Civic, Corolla and Cobalt in FE.

This isn't the problem issue. People may have fled their gas guzzling suv's to avoid severe penalities at the pump but as yet we've seen nothing that indicates people are typically willing to choose one competitors car over another based on a couple mpg difference as per the epa rating. Without doubt it happens, but without a rather large disparity in mileage it is pretty obvious that people more often pick the better car, or at least what they perceive to be the better car, rather than settle for their second choice to save a few bucks at the pump.


The Taurus is more efficient than the Impala too. Also, the V8 FWD Impala SS is rated at 16/24, and not "about the same" as the FWD Taurus' fuel economy of 18/28. There is a big difference there, and adding gears to the Chevy would only add about 1mpg to hwy. Ford is not sitting still with technology and has plans for much more improvements in FE and Emissions. They are already ahead of GM & Chrysler in those targets and they plan on taking as much market share back as they can.

I never said that the V8 Impala did better than the Taurus, I posted that it did better than some of it's smaller engined competition. And prior to the new epa ratings system the Impala did stack up better than it does now to some competitors...I still haven't fully adjusted to the new ratings sytem yet and some of the V8 cars among suffered moreso than did other vehicles. Unfortunately while the new epa ratings sytem is supposed to be more accurate I am not certain that in these cases it will be since V8 cars tend to do pretty well on the highway when you keep your foot out of it. So it goes.

All the above aside, what Ford has to do to revive the brand is to build a better car than the competition which is also obviously a Ford and obviously American. If this means that Ford needs to build more and better small cars to offset an improved large car lines higher gas consumption then they need to figure out the logistics and get it done. If this means that they need to find a way to implement direct injection and/or other technologies into the mainstream lineup to improve mileage ratings before other auto makers do then they need to figure out the logistics and get it done.

I say this because while the Taurus, Edge, and Fusion are nice these are not the kind of vehicles that will return Ford to their previous position in the automotive heirarchy. I seldom agree with Motor Trend but in this area they nailed reality on the head. To wit: plain vanilla, cookie cutter, fwd sedans aren't going to be Detroit's savings grace at this point no matter how badly they wants them to be. Vehicles like the Mustang, Chrysler 300, and F150 should have told Ford and GM this already but it appears that nobody is listening, or at least they aren't listening as closely as they should be.

What those vehicles are telling them is that people want Detroit to do what Detroit does best, which should of course play right into their hands. What I know at the moment is that Mulally's apparent plans for the future dont appear likely to offer the customer the same outside of areas where they are already getting it, like Mustang and F-Series. Even worse, it appears that he may plan to give them something a bit less than this in one area where they are already getting it, the Mustang. Turning Ford into a global quagmire wont work, another reality which should be obvious but apparently isn't.

The really unfortunate thing is that fixing Ford from a product standpoint is so easy and yet they cannot seem to get a grip on things. And what Mulally is cooking up doesn't appear to be a major improvement, particularly in the long term, if one can call it a genuine improvement at all.

wingsnut
10-07-2007, 06:40 PM
This isn't the problem issue. People may have fled their gas guzzling suv's to avoid severe penalities at the pump but as yet we've seen nothing that indicates people are typically willing to choose one competitors car over another based on a couple mpg difference as per the epa rating. Without doubt it happens, but without a rather large disparity in mileage it is pretty obvious that people more often pick the better car, or at least what they perceive to be the better car, rather than settle for their second choice to save a few bucks at the pump.



I never said that the V8 Impala did better than the Taurus, I said that it did better than some of it's smaller engined competition. And prior to the new epa ratings system the Impala did stack up better than it does now to some competitors...I still haven't fully adjusted to the new ratings sytem yet and some of the V8 cars among suffered moreso than did other vehicles. Unfortunately while the new epa ratings sytem is supposed to be more accurate I am not certain that in these cases it will be since V8 cars tend to do pretty well on the highway when you keep your foot out of it. So it goes.

All the above aside, what Ford has to do to revive the brand is to build a better car than the competition which is also obviously a Ford and obviously American. If this means that Ford needs to build more and better small cars to offset an improved large car lines higher gas consumption then they need to figure out the logistics and get it done. If this means that they need to find a way to implement direct injection and other technologies into the mainstream lineup before other auto makers do then they need to figure out the logistics and get it done.

I say this because while the Taurus, Edge, and Fusion are nice these are not the kind of vehicles that will return Ford to their previous position in the automotive heirarchy. I seldom agree with Motor Trend but in one instance they nailed it on the head. To wit: plain vanilla, cookie cutter, fwd sedans aren't going to be Detroit's savings grace at this point no matter how badly Detroit wants them to be. Vehicles like the Mustang, Chrysler 300, and F150 should have told them this already but it appears that nobody is listening.

What those vehicles are telling us is that people want Detroit to do what Detroit does best...which should of course play right into their hands. What I know at the moment is that Mulally's apparent plans for the future dont appear to offer the customer same outside of areas where they are already getting it...like Mustang and F-Series. Even worse, it appears that he may plan to give them something a bit less than this in one area where they are already getting it, the Mustang.

The really unfortunate thing is that fixing Ford from a product standpoint is so easy and yet they cannot seem to get a grip on things. And what mulally is cooking up doesn't appear to be a major improvement, particularly in the long term.


I really don't know what you are saying here.

Every new Ford and Lincoln product seems to be doing great. Fusion, MKZ, MKX, Edge and even the freshened Expy and navi and Escape are doing good. I suspect the freshened Focus will do great as well, because it will offer cool features that everyone will want, along with great FE. I can't imagine the new Lincoln MKS and peoplemover as well as the new FLEX not doing just as well. The Taurus is the only newer product not yet selling big, but it has only been a few months. ALan Mullaly knows that increasing sales numbers is as easy as offering incentives again and dumping to fleet in large numbers like GM and Chrysler does, but they have a bigger, long-term plan and they are sticking to it. FWD cars sell well, but there is a market for RWD and Ford knows this all to well after watching the 300C do so well. But cool new products are coming and they take years to create, especially when they have to figure that product into their overall new product strategy.

jsaylor
10-07-2007, 11:08 PM
I really don't know what you are saying here.

Every new Ford and Lincoln product seems to be doing great. Fusion, MKZ, MKX, Edge and even the freshened Expy and navi and Escape are doing good. I suspect the freshened Focus will do great as well, because it will offer cool features that everyone will want, along with great FE. I can't imagine the new Lincoln MKS and peoplemover as well as the new FLEX not doing just as well. The Taurus is the only newer product not yet selling big, but it has only been a few months.

Saying that all of these vehicles are doing great is pushing it just a bit. With the exception of the Flex none of these vehicles are ground breaking posing almost zero threat of seriously changing the status quo. And Ford was once a car company that changed the status quo like they had exclusive rights to do so. For example, while I like the Fusion (and the Milan and MkZ for that matter) realistically they are doing fair at best. Ford's modest sales targets aside the Fusion isn't even in the top twenty selling vehicles for 2007 with the Accord, Camry, Altima, and Impala all handily besting this car in the sales race. All of this has occured despite the fact that the quality is outstanding and the vehicle represents an extremely good deal. That lasty part should puyt everyone on ntoice that there is more to this game than simply building a good car.

I myself have occasionally pointed to Ford's production restrictions at the Hermosillo facility where the Fusion is built as a reason for fewer vehicles sold. But realistically the fact that the already bargain priced Fusion has had cash on the hood for some time now says that, although demand may be fairly good at current production levels, there is no great mass of consumers waiting impatiently for more product...and there never was.

Unfortunately it is rather likely that somebody reading this is thinking the Fusion just needs to get a little better, and stick around just a little longer, to fix this issue. Even worse, I have no doubt that some folks at Ford are thinking the same thing. In reality the problem is that Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all do plain vanilla fwd transportation quite nicely already thank you very much. And unless something is obviously broken with their Honda, Toyota, or Nissan ownership experience the typical owner isn't going to try to fix things by going to a Ford model which is primarily seeking parity with these cars. And if the above were to occur it is pretty likely that these folks would move to another Japanese make since a large contingent of them are rather convinced that the Japanese do appliances better. (and they may be onto something here)

What Ford needs to do is to stop trying to give people another plain-jane alternative in a sea of the same and start giving them something that appeals to them on a base level, because that is what Detroit does best. The SUV craze occured because of want, not need. The Mustang, F-Series, and 300 all do well because of want, not need. People will pay a premium and/or wait for a car that they really want, but almost never for one that they just need. The full size Ford Galaxie and Lincoln Continental models I mentioned in my initial post, as well as the other vehicles based on them, would be ground breaking because Ford would once again be giving people what they want, and not just what they need. And large cars are but one part of the much broader picture Ford has to get right if they are to do more than simple survive. And right now, they aren't getting it right.


Alan Mullaly knows that increasing sales numbers is as easy as offering incentives again and dumping to fleet in large numbers like GM and Chrysler does, but they have a bigger, long-term plan and they are sticking to it.

I once held great hope for Alan Mulally but he has been an utter disappointment showing little imaginationand even less ingenuity. And the fact that so many will commend him on the most basic of accomplishments honestly makes it worse. Are we really congratulating the man because he understands that rebates are a bad thing? At this rate somebody will be bantering about the fact that he can read and write by next month. The fact that things like this are all we can find to commend him on make it clear that he has done very little worth discussing.


FWD cars sell well, but there is a market for RWD and Ford knows this all to well after watching the 300C do so well. But cool new products are coming and they take years to create, especially when they have to figure that product into their overall new product strategy.

Of course, fwd cars sell well, in the world of mid-size or smaller mainstream sedans that is all there is. What the 300 should have taught every auto maker is that there is a demand for rwd cars in general, not just full size models. For the doubters consider the shortcomings that the 300 has overcome to succeed so convincingly. First, it is sold as a Pentastar product and with apologies to the Mopar faithful that is not generally a boon to sales. Arguably, if not certainly, this car would have sold in better numbers if it was an equally well executed Ford or GM model...possibly to the tune of half again as much or more. The base engine is terrible to be kind. There is an obvious gap between the 3.5L and Hemi versions begging to be filled with something like Ford's upcoming TwinForce V6. The very useful awd option was initially poorly packaged and is still poorly marketed. The lack of a coupe, convertible, or wagon (the Magnum doesn't count for reasons which should be obvious) is ill-advised to say the least while the overdue lwb model is poorly executed stylistically blunting that versions impact. Finally, the price of the car has crept up so much since the models introduction that a base 300C is no longer the deal it once was.

That last issue is especially damning IMO, and yet the car still holds its own quite nicely in the sales war. Before the 300's introduction the list of nay-sayers regarding the rebirth of the modern, American, rwd car was as long as my arm. Now most of those same folks are talking about how obvious the success of the 300 was. Not surprisingly these same folks claim almost to a man that this only applies to large cars and that plain vanilla fwd transportation is what most people really want.

Of course that is a bunch of bunk. People are now and always have been all about emotion and nothing in a Cmary or Accord evokes much emotion. The really impressive thing about Chrysler's move with the 300 is that they took the initiative to do something that they knew would succeed because it appealed to the consumers desires despite opposition from without and within. Granted that was a rare glimpse of foresight on the part of Mother Mopar (or perhaps their then German masters?), but outside of Mustang and F-Series Ford has shown little of the same brashness and opportunism. Even now, under Mulally, we are seeing a whole lot of follow the leader and not very much else.

If Ford is to succeed they need to become the leader that everybody else is following. They cannot do that if they are simply building what everybody else is already making with a twist. And while the Flex is innovative, we need to see exciting, new product in every part of the Ford lineup. The large cars which I mentioned in my initial post would be a good start, but Ford would have to follow up with equally good small and medium sized models and would no doubt have to be willing to ignore the status quo and find innovative solutions that allow them to meet the consumers wants despite any epa induced obstacles.

Even more, Ford has to get these products done right in every area if they are to succeed as they once did in the auto world. You mention that large, rwd cars are coming from Ford. I would mention that they are currently slated to show up almost a decade after Chrysler debuted the 300 and are inexplicably being conceived in Australia. I am sure that this idea makes perfect sense on paper, unfortunately it is riddled with holes out here in the real world. First, Ford needs to fix Ford's core operations here at home if for nothing else than to make something of the fact that Ford is an American car company. Appeal to people's patriotism by giving them something to be proud of and give the company something to be proud of. No matter how damaged the auto-makers reputation might be promiting the idea that you couldn't fix your own core operations isn't the way to regain consumer confidence.

Of course there are other problems, like the fact that development in Australia almost certainly means that costs will grow beyond their initial projections. (don't believe me, ask GM....I called there issues long before reality proved them true) And then there is the fact that Ford is trying to make one rwd platform a catch all for products which don't lend themselves to platform sharing. Example? A Mustang and a potential full size Lincoln sedan on the same basic platform???.....pushing it a bit aren't we fella's? Maybe Toyota can base a new Supra on the LS430? This sounds ridiculous because it is.

Ford needs a complete overhaul, likely by way of a leader with a great deal of imagination, wisdom, and foresight. Delivering large rwd product almost ten years after the competition proved the viability of the same, or short changing the brand and the product by turning it into an ill-advised global quagmire (ie: giving Australia the job of developing a global rwd platform despite the fact that they don't produce as many vehicles combined in a year as Ford NA produces Mustangs) is not an indication that the current leader has any of those qualities.

BigThreeForever
10-08-2007, 05:35 AM
As a loyalist of the real American car (my wife has a 1990 Grand Marquis, and she will consider nothing less than a V8, body-on-frame full-size car) I yearn for a return to true confident, American cars.

So, if I occupied Mr Mullaly's executive swivel chair, this would be my plan for the full-size car segment.

I would use the Panther platform for a new generation of full-size cars for North America. Panther is a solid, reliable and durable platform. I cannot think of another platform that has been so proven or that has served its manufacturer so well. It has also been evolved over time so that little remains from the 1979 model year original. Finally, it is the last body-on-frame car platform available in America, which gives Ford a unique selling proposition, and a key advantage in appealing to certain markets, e.g., police agencies, taxi operators, hearse and limousine body constructors, etc.

The Panther would adopt independent rear suspension for its retail versions to improve road manners and retain the existing live rear axle for its fleet versions, to reduce unit costs and for purposes of toughness and simplicity.

Six-speed automatic transmissions would replace the present four speed to improve smoothness and fuel economy. The engine range would include improved output versions of the present 4.6 V8, along with Boss V8s in selected applications and also possibly the 3.5 V6 as a base model. A hybrid drive system is essential, for warding off environmental criticism, to cope with possible fuel price hikes, to comply with CAFE legislation and to comply with the likes of Mayor Bloomberg's edict that taxis in New York City be hybrids by 2012.

Ford Division would receive two cars.

Ford Crown Victoria

This would not be available to the general public. It would be for fleet buyers, taxi fleets, etc., and would also come in a specific police car iteration, except that these modelswould be even more tailored to their applications than they are now. It would be trimmed appropriately to its role and would have distinctively different styling to the retail car. Sales volume would run at 50-60,000 units per annum, possibly more.

Ford LTD

The full-size Ford available to the general public would be distinctively different to the Crown Vic. It would resurrect the LTD name and would closely resemble the bold, confident Interceptor concept revealed at the 2007Detroit show. There would also be a station wagon version, named Country Squire. Buyers would be able to choose from a wide range of options and accessories to personalise their cars. The LTD would be tasked with reviving the full-size car sector, with making unashamedly American cars cool again - a mission it would undoubtedly more than prove capable of. Sales volume would be in the 80-100,000 unit per annum range.

Lincoln-Mercury Division would also receive two cars:

Mercury Grand Marquis

This would be a modern interpretation of the traditional Grand Marquis, with correspondingly upmarket design features. A station wagon would be available, reviving the Colony Park nameplate. Sales volume would be in the 80-100,000 range.

Lincoln Town Car

Built only in long-wheelbase format (to distance the Lincoln from its lesser siblings) the Town Car would be the apotheosis of Lincoln design, combining the rakish looks of Lincolns past with the new Lincoln design cues as showcased on the MKR concept. Sales volume would be in the 80-100,000 unit per annum range.

This range would prove highly profitable to build, especially when the cost of installing IRS had been amortised. Unlike in the past, where the big cars were left untouched for a decade, these models would be regularly updated.

When these cars were in place, making their debut in the fall of 2010, the time would be ripe to look to expansion. Coupe spin-offs would then include a Ford Thunderbird, a Mercury Cougar and a Lincoln Mark IX. These would be true glamour cars, the Ford and Mercury enabling buyers to own a rakish, head-turning American personal luxury car at a reasonable price. The Lincoln, however, would be the true flagship of out-and-out American luxury, inspired by the ultra-successful 1977-1979 Continental Mark V.

And then I woke up . . .

falcon lover
10-08-2007, 06:51 AM
.......... and then we woke up!!!!...

I hope someones of this ideas come to reality!

jsaylor
10-08-2007, 04:07 PM
As a loyalist of the real American car (my wife has a 1990 Grand Marquis, and she will consider nothing less than a V8, body-on-frame full-size car) I yearn for a return to true confident, American cars.

So, if I occupied Mr Mullaly's executive swivel chair, this would be my plan for the full-size car segment.

I would use the Panther platform for a new generation of full-size cars for North America. Panther is a solid, reliable and durable platform. I cannot think of another platform that has been so proven or that has served its manufacturer so well. It has also been evolved over time so that little remains from the 1979 model year original. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..When these cars were in place, making their debut in the fall of 2010, the time would be ripe to look to expansion. Coupe spin-offs would then include a Ford Thunderbird, a Mercury Cougar and a Lincoln Mark IX. These would be true glamour cars, the Ford and Mercury enabling buyers to own a rakish, head-turning American personal luxury car at a reasonable price. The Lincoln, however, would be the true flagship of out-and-out American luxury, inspired by the ultra-successful 1977-1979 Continental Mark V.

I love to see other peoples ideas on things like these, especially when imagination and ingenuity are involved. In my brief rundown of the plan I think Ford should adopt for rwd models I left out a few tidbits...like the fact that I would keep Panther around as well, although in a different capacity than you do. Here is a redux of my thoughts on a modern, FoMoCo rwd lineup that shows how Panther fits in.

First, I would like to see Ford develop a new, unibody rwd platform that offers some flexibility in size and a great deal of flexibility in potential cost and materials used. The latter is why Ford could employ the same platform on a Galaxie which might start at 26k and a low volume Continental coupe that might start at 65k or more. My earlier rundown of a new, rwd platform for Ford covers the rest.

To these more visible retail products I would like to see Ford add Panther based platforms targeted at fleet and livery sales Ford and Lincoln as well as a new, inexpensive Panther-based retail model to be sold through a new, 'budget' line of cars similar in concept to Renault's Logan brand of vehicles. Under the guise of Ford Fleet and Livery I would like to see updated versions of the current Crown Victoria badged as Interceptor and Customer model for police and fleet duty respectively. Under the guise of Lincoln Livery Services I would like to see a Town Car redux (possibly implementing IRS if costs allow) allowing Lincoln to continue servicing that industry with a bespoke product tailored to the needs of the same. None of these models would be advertised to the public or promoted as retail products in any way, although I might consider letting Lincoln dealers sell the Town Car to the public despite that models new-found distance from the retail sector.

The only true retail product in my Panther lineup would be a new, budget brand model intended to offer a safe, competent, and comfortable large car that is relatively cheap and easy to work on and maintain, not to mention inexpensive to produce, for a very low sum of money. This would be the new retail twin to Ford's Interceptor and Custom models and I would like to see an msrp starting in the 15-16k range for a base, V6 powered model. Costs and prices could be kept low using the same methods Renault has employed with the logan, ie: simple to manufacture body panels and glass, basic interior design and the use of proven and inexpensive component parts.

IMO such a plan would allow Ford to market a modern, rwd-based, large car range through lincoln and Ford that compeetes with the worlds best while also maximizing the potential benefit of the existing Panther platform allowing Ford to continue profiting from fleet, livery, and low end retail sales.

He Named Thor
10-12-2007, 09:26 PM
As cool as it sounds, I really don't see a good reason for Ford to have two large sedans in it's lineup. The Taurus is Ford's large car. Having another vehicle in the line to compete with it sounds like a bad idea.

Unless it's going to be a low-volume vehicle, like the GTO was for Pontiac. Then we should get a Falcon XR8. Seriously, that's a sweet ride. Keep the Falcon name.

2b2
10-13-2007, 12:52 AM
As cool as it sounds, I really don't see a good reason for Ford to have two large sedans in it's lineup. The Taurus is Ford's large car. Having another vehicle in the line to compete with it sounds like a bad idea.

Unless it's going to be a low-volume vehicle, like the GTO was for Pontiac. Then we should get a Falcon XR8. Seriously, that's a sweet ride. Keep the Falcon name.


imho sorta yeah, H.N.T. (aka K.R. ;))
I also agree largely with Jsaylor & BigThreeForever
briefly: (cuz I got a nother new theory that requires background)

Huntsman = main part of new Lincoln lineup: HRL, Continental, TouringCar, & flagship "Panther" (maybe more)
and
specialty Fords = Mustang, Falcon, and a Thunderbird a bit smaller than the Taurus but more sporty/deluxe/+$$$
Falcon & Tbird would be 'size-mates' with the HRL & Connie but switch sedan-coupe*, coupe*-sedan per brand.
So between the architecture sharing with Lincoln and the premium $ & difference from the family-oriented Fwd-based cars due to their 'specialty nature', imho it would work.

Panther platform continues = CV (cop,fleet) &
"Limousine", call it what it is (livery) based on copcar sheetmetal with super-bling grille/details;
until (perhaps) the T6 is able to spawn commercial sedans.
(I'd really like to see them do the separate-from-TC Limo immediately! = 2008cy mystery makeover)

new!:
the long-lost E386 (the MKS's 'cancelled' big brother) is gonna be the GrandMarquis replacement when Huntsman's ready
:D
also got a feeling, depending on how sales go, the MKS might morph into a new Marauder... tho I prefer the name XR8 and (for non-sport) Marquis (no Grand). Together with the new GM, these would replace the old GM AND the Sable. Size-wise, the XR8 would be in between the Milan and Sable/Marquis
and the new GM wouldn't be that much bigger than the non-G Marquis but it and the XR8 get v8's:
{all v8's are AWD only)
XR8 = 5.0 v8 & 5.0turbo (dunno about TwinForceTurbos, but a 300hp v8 & 350hp turbo are adequate)
GM = 5.0 or 3.5-hybrid, and is more luxurious than the
plain Marquis = 3.5 & 3.5-hybrid ...yeah, I know supposedly they're not building a v6hybrid d-:

so (back onTopic) Ford doesn't need or get, at-first-at-least, a new car bigger than the Taurus tho Huntsman will provide that possibility... maybe when biodiesel or hydrogen start replacing gasoline?

* "coupe" could include opera-doors or my TopSecret solution (that someone else recently & independently displayed on this site :mad: :D )

Dick Nesbitt
10-14-2007, 10:36 AM
Or as I call it the "Hapsburg Tiara" :p< click (http://www.micklebring.com/bml/images/victoria66brithday.jpg) for full effect

Though I really question whether the Ford-brand needs a car larger than the Taurus/500 for now
IF they do, I agree with FalconLover.... GALAXIE or LTD (Or both - trim-levels ya know; Galaxie=sport, LTD=Lux)

Falcon >> stretched-Mustang sportsedan
Thunderbird >> slightly larger sportsedan/entry-LuxSport (got a TopSecret not-coupe-not-sedan-not-Opera-doors solution)
Interceptor >> not sure it's a good name for a car but would be fine for a trim-level OR ENGINE!!! (they dropped Hurricane and aren't sure about BOSS, right?)
Fairlane >> used-to-be the second-rate model, sounds like a garden/tea party location to me.
Thunderbolt >> already got a perfectly fine Thunder name & sounds like InternationalRescue to me
___________http://www.moviecitynews.com/static_images/images/2004/200x200/thunderbirds_go.jpg
___________maybe it's my Fomoco orientation but I don't think of marionettes when I hear "Thunderbird"

for BOF-related ideas, see the TC thread (http://www.fomoconews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1327)

--Ford needs a high-value,high-content, leading-edge full-size IRS/4 DISC/V-8/rear-drive Galaxie/LTD,Grand Marquis,Town Car range.......Sedan,coupe and......station wagon.
They would be American cars Americans like best!!

jsaylor
10-14-2007, 01:46 PM
--Ford needs a high-value,high-content, leading-edge full-size IRS/4 DISC/V-8/rear-drive Galaxie/LTD,Grand Marquis,Town Car range.......Sedan,coupe and......station wagon.
They would be American cars Americans like best!!

Amen to that.

dzuchowski
10-16-2007, 07:55 AM
Fairlane is a great name.....but Galaxie is a better choice for this car! Or LTD


I say name the rear wheel drive car after a such a legendary name do I even dare say it... PINTO!!!!!

SobeSVT
10-16-2007, 09:18 AM
I say name the rear wheel drive car after a such a legendary name do I even dare say it... PINTO!!!!!
Why would you say that? Pinto was Ford's first subcompact. Even without the media debacle the name Pinto would be less than appropriate.

. . . or was that a weak attempt to make a joke? :rolleyes:

silvercv2002
11-28-2007, 08:19 AM
I want one. Until Ford builds a big, rear-drive, good looking car with decent horsepower, I am going to be stuck buying trucks. NOTHING else in the current line-up interests me.

CV and GM are great looking cars IMHO, but they lack the power I want..

dzuchowski
11-29-2007, 08:27 AM
I Still Have To Say Use The Pinto Name. Maybe Ford Should Start A New Entry Level Divison Kind Of Like Toyota Did With Scion And Name The New Divison Pinto!