Production MKS testing [Archive] - Ford Inside News Community

: Production MKS testing



megeebee
04-18-2007, 02:02 PM
http://news.windingroad.com/photo-gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=499

http://www.showroomadvantage.com/cartimages/P2715A_1.JPG

SobeSVT
04-18-2007, 02:23 PM
WOW!! I didn't see that on coming. It looks like my birdie was off just by a tiny bit. A production ready car should be poping out soon.

Looking good. It looks like the grill is split in the middle and very MKR like. The glimpse of the interior looks very promising.

Great find megeebee.

megeebee
04-18-2007, 02:51 PM
....you're welcome.


I wish I liked what I see better than I do. The center sections look very Misubishi Galant/ Impala to me.


....just sayin'.

SobeSVT
04-18-2007, 03:06 PM
I wont disagree with you. The sides tend to look very generic (which is another term for (Galant/Impala) when are shown without the character that susally is provided by the rear and front ends. The greenhouse look kind of narrow which is not usual in cars with such rounded roofline, so I hint a strong profile once all the camo is gone.

megeebee
04-18-2007, 03:10 PM
I certainly hope so. This is a very important product for Lincoln. If executed properly it will get a piece of the mid- upper $ 40K car market back.

SobeSVT
04-18-2007, 03:12 PM
I certainly hope so. This is a very important product for Lincoln. If executed properly it will get a piece of the mid- upper $ 40K car market back.
You are right. Is not like they can afford to fail.

B.R.
04-18-2007, 03:16 PM
Looks okay, although it is hard to tell what the final product will look like. I hope the interior hasnt changed much from the concept interior. Will this be an AWD only car or as an option?

B.R.
04-18-2007, 03:20 PM
The production MKS might actually look like the picture the 2b2 posted a little while ago.

SobeSVT
04-18-2007, 03:20 PM
Looks okay, although it is hard to tell what the final product will look like. I hope the interior hasnt changed much from the concept interior. Will this be an AWD only car or as an option?
My understanding is that it will be AWD only. And I agree with you, the best part of the MKS concept was the interior . . . by far.

2b2
04-18-2007, 03:53 PM
IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!


The production MKS might actually look like the picture the 2b2 posted a little while ago.
I dunno ,B.R., tho any car with an MKRish front end...

I'm wondering if they changed the tail lights (http://news.windingroad.com/photo-gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=526&g2_serialNumber=2)
seems that's the part that got the most web-criticism & kinda looks a little different
http://www.mikekukielka.com/gallery/d/5515-2/Lincoln+MKS.JPG from BORG's gallery (http://www.mikekukielka.com/gallery/v/Detroit+Autoshow+2006/Lincoln+MKS.JPG.html) (btw, has anyone invited him to assimila...join FomocoNews?)


edit (cuz I wanted to post the interior pic):
...the best part of the MKS concept was the interior . . . by far.
http://www.lincolnmksforums.com/uploads/1158377009/med_gallery_1_1_34354.jpg
:YUP: (we need a YUP smilie!)
the WindingRoad pic (http://news.windingroad.com/photo-gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=506) looks pretty much unchanged - 'course we don't know if this is pre-production OR the actual showcar doing mule-duty...

RG59061
04-18-2007, 04:16 PM
Hello All,

I just saw the news on Left Lane News and shot right here to see where the action was.

Here is the article posted to Left Lane News.com describing these fabulous Spy Shots provided to them from the wonerful KGP Photography.


Lincoln appears to be finally preparing a credible entry above the Mazda6-based MKZ, in the guise of this prototype for the Lincoln MKS. The MKS–first seen as a concept at the Detroit's 2006 North American International Auto Show–looks like it has made a smooth transition from show car to reality, with minimal changes to the car's overall shape. The main character lines and greenhouse shape mimic the concept, with noticeable differences residing only in the details.

This prototype's grille displays surface development different from the MKS concept, leaning instead toward the sexy '07 MKR concept (except for the MKR's split-grille design). The MKS' upswept headlight slits will reach production with minor alterations to the internal lighting elements themselves. The concept's red tail-lights have been changed to white on this prototype, with a pleasing neon red glow when activated. The tail-light shape itself appears largely unchanged.

The MKS concept had a 114-inch wheelbase, and a 4.4-liter 315- horsepower V8, and production versions were pegged to have the Yamaha derived 4.8-liter V8, currently found in the Volvo XC90. That engine program has reportedly been scrapped, however, due to cost concerns, possibly leaving this Lincoln flagship to soldier on with only a V6 option.

We expect to see this production MKS go public next January at the 2008 NAIAS.


Here are some lovely shots of the camoflauged prototype courtesy of Left Lane News.com (http://www.leftlanenews.com/lincoln-mks-future.html)

http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/1-2009-lincoln-mks-spied-april.jpg
Front 3/4 View

http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/2-2009-lincoln-mks-spied-april.jpg
Side Profile

http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/3-2009-lincoln-mks-spied-april.jpg
Rear 3/4 View

http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/5-2009-lincoln-mks-spied-april.jpg
Tail-Light Detail

And For The Pieste-Resistance'...An Interior Shot!

http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/4-2009-lincoln-mks-spied-april.jpg

Again, these pictures are the property of KGP Photography, Left Lane News and are linked directly to them since they are the source. Please visit Left Lane News...they are a wonderful Automotive News site and always have great spy shots of the latest cars to hit the streets.

From what can be seen here, it looks as though the MKS is moving into prodcution with only a few minor cosmetic tweaks and that the overall good looks of the car have been spared!

If all holds up well, we should see less camoflauge within a few months and really start to see where Lincoln will be heading. But based on first glances, this appears to be a step in the right direction!

As Always...Stay Fabulous!
RG59061

B.R.
04-18-2007, 06:06 PM
What is that red button on top of the dash in the picture?

RG59061
04-18-2007, 06:11 PM
Elementary my dear B.R....For The Ejection Seat!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

I am actually not sure what that is for. I believe that is possibly for a fuel cut-off or an emergency kill switch. I really can not say fo certain what it is.

As Always... Stay Fabulous!
RG59061

B.R.
04-18-2007, 06:17 PM
Elementary my dear B.R....For The Ejection Seat!



Haha that was the first thing that I thought too but then I said there was no way that it was. Oh well.

2b2
04-18-2007, 08:56 PM
Haha that was the first thing that I thought too but then I said there was no way that it was. Oh well.

Yeah, it's a kill switch - I've read that in numerous places - afaik it cuts off both electrical & fuel

other stuff
Thought I'd post some measurements to forestall the confusion I see elsewhere
wlb____ovl___width___model
117.7 - 215.4 - 78.2 - TownCar (regular, not 'L'(+6" stretch))
114.7 - 212.0 - 77.3 - CrownVic
120.8 - 201.6 - 76.4 - Interceptor concept
114.4 - 203.8 - 75.5 - MkS concept
112.9 - 200.7 - 74.5 - 500 (& assumed Taurus)
112.9 - 195.7 - 75.4 - MKR concept
111.6 - 191.0?- 73.2 - new Volvo S80 (length est.)
107.4 - 190.5 - 72.2 - MKZ ('07 Awd 191.3 ovl (?))

Noticed they're not using the specially design MKS wheels on the testcar (understandable)
Tho by itself I have some 'unfulfilled aspirations' if not actual misgivings regarding the MKS,
it should do well IF
- they come out with a more forceful (if not downright sporty) model/concept -(ie v8*)- the engine formerly know as BOSS/Hurricane oughta be ready soon, no?
- they'd undercut all those flagship questions/comments/jibes on other sites by showing a true flagship (concept at least)


* earlier today I posted elsewhere against the absurd HP wars MB/BMW/others are waging
but
Come ON...

RG59061
04-19-2007, 05:24 AM
I am not so certain that the MKS will require a V8 to be a Flagship for the Lincoln brand or to be competetive in the segment.

Acura's RL Flagship is powered by a 300 horsepower V-6 mated to an All-Wheel Drive system and can price out close to $60,000!

As far as Lincoln goes, if they can utilize either the Twin-Force V-6 or the forthcoming Duratec 37 3.7 Liter...then I feel that the MKS can cut the mustard. To most enthusiasts, a V8 is a necessity. However, the Hemi magic is starting to fade...considerably, and more Americans are turning their attentions to fuel economy and ever increasing gasoline prices.

As for the design, it is definitely a change compared to the usual Lincoln rebadges of the past few decades. If Ford can continue this trend of diversifying Lincolns from Fords...and that means much needs to change on the Navigator...then Lincoln can properly establish itself as a maker of Premium Automobiles that embody Refined and Subtle Luxury. Not the Avant-Garde styling that has become Cadillac.

As Always...Stay Fabulous!
RG59061

igor
04-19-2007, 08:16 AM
The biggest PROBLEM I see with the interior is the CENTER STACK is seems to have the FLEX silvery plastic .. that is OK on the Flex .. but should not be present on the MKS .. MKS needs a real aluminum - all shiny bits that are not movning need to be real - not fake .. if Volvo can do it - so can/should Lincon.

Also if you look at the MKS concept you realize that the interior switchgear is now in the Flex - again this was a great move, but now Lincoln needs its OWN unique-feel sqitchgear - if they again put the same buttons and layouts to everything from Fusion to MKS, the Ford brand lineup will be hurt, if not detroyed.

I hope what looks like leather/suede on top of the mule dash is actual leather/suede and not some cheap plastic ..

I am very hopeful about this car after the Flex came out .. I hope Fields and Horbury did not eff it up

Oh and on personal note - I was hoping the tail lights would change to MKR inspired ones and the shoulder crease would besome more pronounced .. but I guess i was hoping for too much - maybe the c-pillar area is hiding something interesting we are not expecting.

Igor

igor
04-19-2007, 08:20 AM
I am not so certain that the MKS will require a V8 to be a Flagship for the Lincoln brand or to be competetive in the segment.

Acura's RL Flagship is powered by a 300 horsepower V-6 mated to an All-Wheel Drive system and can price out close to $60,000!

As far as Lincoln goes, if they can utilize either the Twin-Force V-6 or the forthcoming Duratec 37 3.7 Liter...then I feel that the MKS can cut the mustard. To most enthusiasts, a V8 is a necessity. However, the Hemi magic is starting to fade...considerably, and more Americans are turning their attentions to fuel economy and ever increasing gasoline prices.

As for the design, it is definitely a change compared to the usual Lincoln rebadges of the past few decades. If Ford can continue this trend of diversifying Lincolns from Fords...and that means much needs to change on the Navigator...then Lincoln can properly establish itself as a maker of Premium Automobiles that embody Refined and Subtle Luxury. Not the Avant-Garde styling that has become Cadillac.

As Always...Stay Fabulous!
RG59061

Both the D37 (probably with DI and other tech - 300-320hp) and the TwinForce GTDI D35 (350hp/350ft.lbs) will be present .. of course the latter will be optional.

and I AM fabulous

Igor

RG59061
04-19-2007, 08:54 AM
If the Lincoln MKS will have between 300 and 350 bhp...then with the proper amount of torque routed through an All-Wheel Drive System, and the new Six-Speed Automoatic Transmission to join the two...then I feel the new MKS will do just fine.

Now, we have to hope that the production interior is just as stunning and of as high a quality as the Concept MKS and the production interior shown in the 2009 Ford Flex.

With the obvious inclusion of Sync, Ford's Gen. II Navigation System that was debuted on the Ford Flex, Bluetooth, Lincoln's stunning THX Dolby Pro-Logic II Audio System, and the brevy of standard safety features that Ford has been pushing forward...the Lincoln MKS will trully be able to rival the techno-gadgetry no so accustomed in a Luxury Sedan (e.g. Infiniti M45, Acura RL, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes S-Class and Cadillac DTS).

I can not wait to see more shots in the future.

Keep this commentary and discussion going guys, this is just too much fun.

Igor, you are Fabulous enough already but I'll say it again anyway...after all, it's my tag line.

Stay Fabulous!
RG59061

megeebee
04-19-2007, 09:32 AM
I have to take issue with the Leftlane News copy that says the "surface development" of this prototype is different from the MKS "concept" and is closer to the MKR. Even from the sheetmetal that's showing, you can see virtually no difference between this mule and the "concept" MKS of 2006. Outside of the grill and perhaps the tail lights (if they could be seen) there is positively nothing "MKR" about it.

I put the word "concept" in quotes because like so many automakers do today, Ford had pretty much finished the MKS by January 2006. They produced a very well finished prototype with a one-off interior and gorgeous wheels at the show, and called it a "concept". But the sheetmetal would have had to be essentially frozen by then for us to see rolling test vehicles like the one in these photos.

megeebee
04-19-2007, 11:00 AM
I am not so certain that the MKS will require a V8 to be a Flagship for the Lincoln brand or to be competetive in the segment.

Acura's RL Flagship is powered by a 300 horsepower V-6 mated to an All-Wheel Drive system and can price out close to $60,000!


...and they sell about 17 a year. The RL is a failure even by Hondas admission. It may not be the vehicle to compare the MKS to.

My own opinion is that it will compete more closely with the Lexus ES, and the Buick Lucerne. These markets are much more accepting of 6 cylinder cars.

igor
04-19-2007, 11:24 AM
Sizewise, we are nowhere near competing with the 7 series - the MKS will be a 5series fighter - along with the new CTS.

Igor

megeebee
04-19-2007, 11:27 AM
- the MKS will be a 5series fighter

Igor


?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

igor
04-19-2007, 11:29 AM
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

on price and performance - Lincoln cannot even dream of MKS fighting the 7series .. the 5er is a little smaller inside but by only a little ... and on features and price - the 5 and CTS will be a direct match.

Igor

megeebee
04-19-2007, 11:44 AM
on price and performance - Lincoln cannot even dream of MKS fighting the 7series .. the 5er is a little smaller inside but by only a little ... and on features and price - the 5 and CTS will be a direct match.

Igor


?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

SobeSVT
04-19-2007, 12:00 PM
and I AM fabulous

Igor
Aren't we all? I just hope the MKS is.

Although similarly arranged I don't think the switchgear in the Flex is the same as in the MKS concept, but I certainly hope that the switchgear in the MS is the same one they used in the concept. The buttons in the Flex look blockier and less luxurious.

http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2006/0601_naias_029+2007_lincoln_mks_concept+dashboard_ view.jpg
Lincoln MKS Concept

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9536/img1211xb0.jpg
Ford Flex

Finally, I saw the picture of the interior and it looks like real aluminum to me. I HOPE I am right.

igor
04-19-2007, 12:56 PM
Aren't we all? I just hope the MKS is.

Although similarly arranged I don't think the switchgear in the Flex is the same as in the MKS concept, but I certainly hope that the switchgear in the MS is the same one they used in the concept. The buttons in the Flex look blockier and less luxurious.

http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2006/0601_naias_029+2007_lincoln_mks_concept+dashboard_ view.jpg
Lincoln MKS Concept

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9536/img1211xb0.jpg
Ford Flex

Finally, I saw the picture of the interior and it looks like real aluminum to me. I HOPE I am right.

I agree ... I surely hope you are right on both counts ... any new word on debut? LAIAS? NAIAS?

Igor

Mbukukanyau
04-19-2007, 12:58 PM
I agree ... I surely hope you are right on both counts ... any new word on debut? LAIAS? NAIAS?

Igor
Igor, If you do not know, who knows?:D

igor
04-19-2007, 01:05 PM
here is a hi-res of the mule interior :

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/iholas/LincolnMKSprototype-003.jpg
(even higher res: http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/4-2009-lincoln-mks-spied-april.jpg)

concept pic:
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2006/0601_naias_029+2007_lincoln_mks_concept+dashboard_ view.jpg


form this angle one can tell they kept some details of the ven design - the off center control knob on the vents, the dash is coverred in leater, but it is way thinner than the concept.

there is a light or a tweeter speaker in the A pillar .. we shall see..

the rear view mirror is auto dim .

the center stack material does not look like aluminum to me at all thought ..the way it is shaped and the way it reflexts light ... :( ...

but I hope I am wrong.

also I am disappointed the speaker on top of the dash (in the center) is now black - not silver ....

also a lot of the chrome accents about the interior seem to have disappeared .. I think that is a mistake .. interior in this class needs to be well dressed up.

The stering wheel is different from concept, with a slab of wood on top (ala Flex and Taurus) - I hope it is not not just a corporate wheel ... or not a Ford corproate wheel.

I am sad to say, that without the leater top of the dash, this would look perfect in the 2010 Taurus ...

I hope this is just a bad first impression.

Igor

B.R.
04-19-2007, 01:17 PM
on price and performance - Lincoln cannot even dream of MKS fighting the 7series .. the 5er is a little smaller inside but by only a little ... and on features and price - the 5 and CTS will be a direct match.

Igor

But the bad news for Lincoln is that they are both RWD and sporty handling cars. Hopefully Lincoln will make AWD standard in the MKS, then it can be a true competitor. The MKS needs to have a beautiful interior because that new CTS has an extremely impressive looking interior just by looking at pictures of it. Do you know if the CTS will have an optional V-8 that would be available but without having to get the CTS-V or will it be the 3.6L V-6 only?

igor
04-19-2007, 01:19 PM
front
high res: http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/6-2009-lincoln-mks-spied-april.jpg

it seems the headlighets changed from the concept and do look a bit more like Mondeo - however the trick LED "adaptible lightinig" seems to be still there.

the grille is way more gnarish than the concept .. and we can sssume it will be split in the middle a la MKR

However, the lower facia treatment was not changed - it seems identical or close to the concept.

I like the actual chrome ring around the fog lights ... better looking than the filmsy little thing around the MKZ fodlights.

other details remained - the window line still separates from the shoulder, the fuel cap is where it was on the concept, and there is the little trim piece betwen rear doors and rear wheel wells - god knows shy that is simply not a part of the rear quarter panel.

they do not seem to have kept the cladding along the lower edge of the doors - I think that is a mistake - cladding like that makes vehicles look lower (see new Vue for example_ - however rocker panels might be still black.

Overall, not mush is different ... and the front could look quite interesting - Ford has been successful with making mainstream vehicles look distinctive with "bold" (yeah I know) noses .. this could continue that trend.

finally is it me or is the moonroof on this car jus a regular small one?

Igor

igor
04-19-2007, 01:24 PM
But the bad news for Lincoln is that they are both RWD and sporty handling cars. Hopefully Lincoln will make AWD standard in the MKS, then it can be a true competitor. The MKS needs to have a beautiful interior because that new CTS has an extremely impressive looking interior just by looking at pictures of it. Do you know if the CTS will have an optional V-8 that would be available but without having to get the CTS-V or will it be the 3.6L V-6 only?

I am prettysure CTS will have a V8 option. also the interior is OK .. yes, thebeting the CTS interior will be a challenge ..e specially since Lincoln seems to have abandoned the distinctive two pod design that won them praise in the MKZ and MKX - and made them stand out ...

also, there is a rumor the MKS's AWD will be significantly RWD biased.

Igor

B.R.
04-19-2007, 01:42 PM
I am prettysure CTS will have a V8 option. also the interior is OK .. yes, thebeting the CTS interior will be a challenge ..e specially since Lincoln seems to have abandoned the distinctive two pod design that won them praise in the MKZ and MKX - and made them stand out ...

also, there is a rumor the MKS's AWD will be significantly RWD biased.

Igor

You are right, the big Lincoln Continentalish type dash made Lincoln interiors distinctive. The interior of the MKS concept was stunning, but it had to have been watereddown for production. Another nice interior that Lincoln has made in a concept is the Mark X and it might look really nice in the production MKS. Here is a picture of it:

http://www.diseno-art.com/images/lincoln_markX_interior.jpg

It still has the traditional Lincoln design, but it is not as blocky as the MKZ interior.

megeebee
04-19-2007, 03:18 PM
I am prettysure CTS will have a V8 option.


Not right away. The CTS V will be on hiatus for 2008. It returns in '09 with what is rumored to be some 500 HP.

The latest gossip says that for 2010 the CTS is upgraded tremendously with an even more rich interior and a V8 option, less neck-snapping than the V, in addition to the new DI V6. There are also coupe and wagon versions that many say are green-lighted for that time as well. The upgrades are to compensate for the sales-slug STS that will cease to be in mid-2009.

2b2
04-19-2007, 04:15 PM
I am not so certain that the MKS will require a V8 to be a Flagship for the Lincoln brand


I wasn't suggesting a v8 for the MKS(D385) cuz it was never meant to be a flagship - that shoulda/woulda/coulda been the MKS's big brother, the E386 1 (http://www.cars.com/news/stories/071304_storya_an.jhtml?page=newsstory&aff=national) 2 (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107374), which has been in limbo for quite a while. (Imho a hybrid-v6 MKS would be more appropriate!)

reLooking at the measurements I noticed the average of the TC & MKZ(awd) = 203.35" ovl
MKS.concept = 203.8
so by Lincolnesque standards, it's a "midsize" (just about precisely)

BUT by any other standard....
QUOTE=igor
Sizewise, we are nowhere near competing with the 7 series - the MKS will be a 5series fighter - along with the new CTS.
Igor

Nah, S I Z E-wise it'll SQUASH the 7'er.
ovl
190.6 - 5'er
198.0 - 7'er
203.5 - 7-L ('L' as in Longer/Limo)
____ - guess what goes here
QED
(Wow! a stretched 7 series is only Half Way from the MKZ to the size of the non-stretched TC! holy moly!)

So think the SIZE & Weight of the s t r e t c h e d 7'er and a 3.5ish v6 like a 3'er (but not the v8 M3!)

Believe it or not, this isn't criticism of the MKS. It'll be a very nice 'midsize' in Lincolnese. Definitely an attractive alternative to the Lucerne or Avalon, or if the Lexus ES & MKZ are too small for you.
The interior will be it's forté,
compare with this recently 'leaked' pic (guess who)
http://home.surfree.com/~pauld/whose-int.jpg
http://www.lincolnmksforums.com/uploads/1158377009/med_gallery_1_1_34354.jpg

just for fun, compare the MKS side & front to this (http://home.surfree.com/~pauld/whose-side.jpg) & this (http://home.surfree.com/~pauld/whose-frt.jpg).


footnotes:
1 (http://www.cars.com/news/stories/071304_storya_an.jhtml?page=newsstory&aff=national) original Lincoln D3 article: "Ford Motor Co. is developing two sedans to freshen the tired Lincoln lineup... ...The larger vehicle was described as an extended-wheelbase sedan code-named e386."
2 (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107374) Edmunds: "Lincoln is planning to overhaul its sedan lineup, and recently said it will kill its midrange LS sedan in favor of another vehicle with a similar position in the lineup. The car that will roughly occupy the LS' place in the lineup, known as D385, will arrive in model-year 2008 on Ford's D3 platform, and E386 will use a long-wheelbase version of the architecture."

RG59061
04-19-2007, 08:25 PM
I see the similarities, but at the same time, I prefer the classic and straight-forward styling of the Lincoln MKS interior to the overworked Teutonic look of the interior from the BMW Four-Door Coupe Concept pictured above, that was just unveiled in Shanghai.

Lincoln's are about simple, understated American luxury and elegence. Not flashy, in your face, garish styling that assaults the senses ala BMW, Cadillac, Acura, and some other Luxury Marques. American luxury is simple, clean, uncluttered, elegent, and timeless...think 1961 Lincoln Continental Convertible!

In all honesty, I simply referenced the Acura RL due to the fact that as a flagship sedan for Acura...it does not offer a V8 Engine. Similar to the situation facing the Lincoln MKS.

As for the 7-Series...with the new prototypes showing the overall styling, dimensions, and size of the sedan shrinking, I feel that the MKS will take on the 7 in its own...decidedly American way. The BMW's complexity can be summed up in one word...iDrive! The Lincoln will offer a more practical, refined, and intuitive vehicle with the same technology at a substantial cost savings. Reason enough for me to consider the MKS over a 5 or 7...plus, everyone and their mother has a 5 or 7...why not stand out on the road and drive something unique for a change!

Oh well, I've made my peace.
As Always...Stay Fabulous!
RG59061

2b2
04-20-2007, 02:17 PM
I've been out collecting 'rumors' for speculation fodder

- 79 new MKS car bodies are being built in Chicago this week
- MKS Job1 by March 2008
- Chicago will be receiving a v8 later this year, which the source thinks could only be for the Lincoln
- "Q: MKS turbo = 350HP/350T? Isn't the TwinForce capable of 415-425?
-- Ans: The higher output versions will be RWD."
- "Q: Will the 3.7v6 be like other mfgs, tuned for premium gas but accepts regular?
-- Ans: All model lines using the Cyclone will see this including Mazda."
- "Q: TF on the Taurus?
-- Ans: As of now it is 2009cy/2010my with all new body."

now speculation
- The MKS will have 3 versions at intro - 3.7 v6 with around 300hp (300 min. with high octane) & choice of Fwd or Awd; 3.5 turbo v6 with around 350hp/350t, Awd only.
- The Awd will be significantly Rwd-biased - possibly referred to as Rwd internally.
- But could there be a true Rwd version in the works? To me, this would explain the 2+ year delay (as I see it) in bringing it out.
- Could the 400+hp TF go in a Rwd MKS? (ie using the MKR drivetrain) or just the MKR?
- Could a 5.0 v8 (e.f.k.a.BOSS/Hurricane) version appear after the MKS's intro?
(tho no rumour, I still hope Ford is working on a v6-hybrid!)

&
enlarged CrossShopped List (if not direct competitors) in no particular order
Lurcerne & Avalon as said -- the MKS would offer more distinction
ES & MKZ -- more room, power, & the ES doesn't have Awd, does it?
M35,45/___ (the Q45 is on haitus, isn't it?)
A6/A8 -- size/price
LS/GS -- I'm starting to see the MKS as a combo of these 2, possibly offering the best of both
DTS (& the STS is being dropped) -- might be major source of conquest sales!
Acura (& Volvo!) -- don't offer a car this size... could the MKS define a new "premium size" class?
300 -- other than Hemi(becoming a BAD Word) versions don't measure up
Pontiac G8? -- will it come close to the MKS's luxury?
MonteCarlo (gone) -- could the MKS become the next 'personal-luxury' car?

I'm not including MB/BMW due to $$$$$$, Rwd, & 'label buyers'.
Anyone else add on?

megeebee
04-20-2007, 03:59 PM
Next March? That's sooner than I thought. Good. This car can't come soon enough for Lincoln. Even with its compromises (and there are going to be a few, every car does) it will add some volume to the LM franchise.

SobeSVT
04-20-2007, 05:42 PM
Next March? That's sooner than I thought. Good. This car can't come soon enough for Lincoln. Even with its compromises (and there are going to be a few, every car does) it will add some volume to the LM franchise.
Hopefully it will be HEALTHY volume (much more retail than fleet). I wonder if they will use an auto show for its introduction. Detroit, and even L.A. seem too close to Job1. The only semi-major auto show is Miami, where Ford is the only maker to make introductions, although minor ones, like the Mercury Mariner last year (BEFORE the Escape though). It would be kind of cool (only because I am here) and it wouldn't have to share the limelight with anyone else.

B.R.
04-20-2007, 06:28 PM
Hopefully it will be HEALTHY volume (much more retail than fleet). I wonder if they will use an auto show for its introduction. Detroit, and even L.A. seem too close to Job1.

What does too close to Job1 mean?

2b2
04-20-2007, 07:59 PM
...I wonder if they will use an auto show for its introduction. Detroit, and even L.A. seem too close to Job1...

Not too close at all IMHO. That's the way the imports do it, no? not allow a long wait to kill the buzz? I've believed for some time there should be just enough time for the news to percolate... say 2-6 months, maybe NAIAS to Fall, definitely less than a year. Also sorta think a moratorium on concepts until there's spare $$$ for them is in order...
btw, thought I saw someone/somewhere post the MKS will be at the next NAIAS.

&while I'm here I'll post this
http://news.windingroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Lincoln-MKS-rendering.jpg hope that 'feeling' is in the production MKS

and link this (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/466053090_2d37fa1051.jpg) and this (http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Ford/Mustang/spy/giugiaro_mustang.jpg).
Anyone else see any resemblance? almost a progression from the MKS (sketch version anyway) to the last link?

megeebee
04-21-2007, 01:40 AM
What does too close to Job1 mean?



I believe it refers to the first saleable, regular production unit.

With completely new vehicles, like MKS, there is a period of pre-production that can last months. Training the factory people, testing, that sort of thing. Ford is doing a balancing act with the MKS in a way. It was pulled forward to production earlier than originally planned. But the car's launch has to be trouble free if it's to win any success.

B.R.
04-21-2007, 08:04 AM
Not too close at all IMHO. That's the way the imports do it, no? not allow a long wait to kill the buzz? I've believed for some time there should be just enough time for the news to percolate... say 2-6 months, maybe NAIAS to Fall, definitely less than a year. Also sorta think a moratorium on concepts until there's spare $$$ for them is in order...
btw, thought I saw someone/somewhere post the MKS will be at the next NAIAS.

&while I'm here I'll post this
http://news.windingroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Lincoln-MKS-rendering.jpg hope that 'feeling' is in the production MKS

and link this (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/466053090_2d37fa1051.jpg) and this (http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Ford/Mustang/spy/giugiaro_mustang.jpg).
Anyone else see any resemblance? almost a progression from the MKS (sketch version anyway) to the last link?

There is a resemblencde between the 3 pictures that 2b2 posted. They all have the hump over the rear wheel, although the BMW concept doesnt look as good as the MKS picture and not even close to as good lookinh as the Guigaro Mustang.

SobeSVT
04-21-2007, 08:32 AM
Not too close at all IMHO. That's the way the imports do it, no? not allow a long wait to kill the buzz? I've believed for some time there should be just enough time for the news to percolate... say 2-6 months, maybe NAIAS to Fall, definitely less than a year. Also sorta think a moratorium on concepts until there's spare $$$ for them is in order...
btw, thought I saw someone/somewhere post the MKS will be at the next NAIAS.

&while I'm here I'll post this
http://news.windingroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Lincoln-MKS-rendering.jpg hope that 'feeling' is in the production MKS

and link this (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/466053090_2d37fa1051.jpg) and this (http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Ford/Mustang/spy/giugiaro_mustang.jpg).
Anyone else see any resemblance? almost a progression from the MKS (sketch version anyway) to the last link?
You are totally correct.

2b2
04-22-2007, 05:38 PM
glad the resemblance isn't just me :-)


...although the BMW concept doesnt look as good as the MKS picture and not even close to as good lookinh as the Guigaro Mustang.


well, for me NO Bangle design is all that good, the CS being less 'bangled' (no weird curved rockerpanel and ugly exposed origami trunklid cut) it's the best they've shown since handing over the reins to Mr.B... tho still a bit weird

nother interesting thing imho is the MKS & CS are about the same length!

Guess that's helping me see the MKS in a different light -
tho it isn't the model I'm hankering for Lincoln to do,
it might be a very careful balancing act - part premium sedan, part sporty-ish personal car (,part what's doable), part affordable-yet-deluxe 'white space' vehicle (probably HALF the $$$$$$ of the CS)... maybe like what a Toronado/Eldorado might be IF GM still built them?

B.R.
04-23-2007, 04:51 AM
Guess that's helping me see the MKS in a different light -
tho it isn't the model I'm hankering for Lincoln to do,
it might be a very careful balancing act - part premium sedan, part sporty-ish personal car (,part what's doable), part affordable-yet-deluxe 'white space' vehicle (probably HALF the $$$$$$ of the CS)... maybe like what a Toronado/Eldorado might be IF GM still built them?


If Lincoln can make this MKS like how you said, a part premium sedan, sport sedan and a personal car all in one, there is no doubt in my mind it will be a hit. But I guess for Lincoln to do this, there would have to be alot of options tp make the car exactly what you want like a more powerful motor, stiffer suspension and other little sporty things for a sport model, whereas the luxury car buyer that just traded in his Town Car would want a more plusher car inside and at the same time they have to make it cost less than the competition (like the MKZ). But if Lincoln can do this with the MKS, it will be a hit.

2b2
04-23-2007, 02:22 PM
^^ Yeah, B.R., it's that all-in-one approach that's troubled me.

&
Good Lincoln read(s) by DouglaR @ BON:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12559&pid=168596&st=100&#entry168596
on page 7 of that thread there's discussion about Lincoln's history (mainly 50's onward) that could be interpreted (by me) to indicate a 60-'s style rebirth could be around the corner...

so,
more speculation that occurred to me last night -
I've been wondering how the still-next-year MKS intro will fit-in with the forecasted EUCD remake of the D3 and CD3 platforms...

IS it possible that the 'current' MKS will split into 2 (TWO!) cars in a few years?
ie the very-slightly larger E386 with the e.f.k.a.BOSS/Hurricane 5.0v8 (& v6-hybrid base powertrain?);
and the somewhat leaner MkSuperSport promoting the TwinForce turbo6? (that I've re-thinking about lately 1 (http://www.fomoconews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473) 2 (http://home.surfree.com/~pauld/D385.htm))

This seems imho another way to rationalize a short production run for the MKS (which I expect), to prop-up Lincoln and help pay-the-way for a quick 1-2 punch in the near future??
(for some reason I usually believe a brand's midrange is where they need the most product)

B.R.
04-23-2007, 05:14 PM
[QUOTE=2b2;2179(for some reason I usually believe a brand's midrange is where they need the most product)[/QUOTE]

I guess the brand's midrange is the product most people want, so they need to offer lots of options to sell lots of them.

LincolnFan
04-25-2007, 04:28 AM
Why the hell is a V8 heading to Chicago? They can't do anything with that. All what they build is the D3s which can't handle a V8.

igor
04-25-2007, 06:15 AM
^^ Yeah, B.R., it's that all-in-one approach that's troubled me.

&
Good Lincoln read(s) by DouglaR @ BON:
http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12559&pid=168596&st=100&#entry168596
on page 7 of that thread there's discussion about Lincoln's history (mainly 50's onward) that could be interpreted (by me) to indicate a 60-'s style rebirth could be around the corner...

so,
more speculation that occurred to me last night -
I've been wondering how the still-next-year MKS intro will fit-in with the forecasted EUCD remake of the D3 and CD3 platforms...

IS it possible that the 'current' MKS will split into 2 (TWO!) cars in a few years?
ie the very-slightly larger E386 with the e.f.k.a.BOSS/Hurricane 5.0v8 (& v6-hybrid base powertrain?);
and the somewhat leaner MkSuperSport promoting the TwinForce turbo6? (that I've re-thinking about lately 1 (http://www.fomoconews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473) 2 (http://home.surfree.com/~pauld/D385.htm))

This seems imho another way to rationalize a short production run for the MKS (which I expect), to prop-up Lincoln and help pay-the-way for a quick 1-2 punch in the near future??
(for some reason I usually believe a brand's midrange is where they need the most product)

D3 will remain D3 for another generation (i.e. the 2010 Taurus will NOT be EUCD).

they weill rework the platform, but it will not be merged with EUCD just yet.

Igor

2b2
04-25-2007, 02:34 PM
D3 will remain D3 for another generation (i.e. the 2010 Taurus will NOT be EUCD).
they will rework the platform, but it will not be merged with EUCD just yet.
Igor


K/TYvm & did it sound definite when you heard that?
I look forward (on the 'edge' of my chair ;)) to finding out further developments
sooooo much is happening/about-to-happen - way better than any TV cliffhanger...

belated edit:
Igor, have you heard if the 2010cy? CD3 is (still) switching to EUCD???


& re: LincolnFan
didn't mean to imply the v8 was production tracked
imho (just opinion) the engines are only to be just on-hand for R&D ("you want What to fit Where?...")
IF the rumor was correct...

2b2
04-29-2007, 02:31 PM
prediction:
when the MKS arrives (within 12 months)
It will have the new dual clutch transmission (6DCT470 (http://www.fomoconews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=514))

crossreference:
Volvo S60 (http://www.fomoconews.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2413#post2413) (simultaneous release???)

SobeSVT
04-29-2007, 04:20 PM
Why the hell is a V8 heading to Chicago? They can't do anything with that. All what they build is the D3s which can't handle a V8.
Why not? The S80 and the XC90 both have optional V8s.

igor
04-30-2007, 06:29 AM
K/TYvm & did it sound definite when you heard that?
I look forward (on the 'edge' of my chair ;)) to finding out further developments
sooooo much is happening/about-to-happen - way better than any TV cliffhanger...

belated edit:
Igor, have you heard if the 2010cy? CD3 is (still) switching to EUCD???


& re: LincolnFan
didn't mean to imply the v8 was production tracked
imho (just opinion) the engines are only to be just on-hand for R&D ("you want What to fit Where?...")
IF the rumor was correct...


yes the D3 for 2010 Taurus is deifnite ... the MKS basically weill launch this new platoform ..

the Cd3 infor about EUCD is a prediction it is based on a call by a Ford EU official who said that current Modeo and Fusion are perfectly matched and both doing well, so it does not make sense to replace one with the other .. but they will be merged in the future.

AN reported today that the new Mazda6 (already running arounf the globe as a mule) is on EUCD,NOT CD3 .. and this IMO confirms that the merge of Fusion and Mondeo will be quicker rather than slower ... but we shall see - there has not been any official or internal indication just yet.

Igor

2b2
05-17-2007, 02:13 PM
Didn't know about these hi-res (1280x800-ish) versions before

http://www.thecarconnection.com//scrapbook-popup.asp?ScrapbookID=1364

megeebee
05-17-2007, 03:56 PM
Try this one....



http://www.thecarconnection.com//scrapbook-popup.asp?ScrapbookID=1364&Position=1

2b2
05-17-2007, 04:29 PM
Thanks, Megeebee
corrected the first link to avoid confusion (& eye strain ;))

RG59061
07-18-2007, 09:22 AM
Well, Hello again!

we now have more to see of the prototype Lincoln MKS, and it involves Chromium Steel!

Here are some new spy shots released today on The Car Connection.com (http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots_and_Future_Cars/2009_Lincoln_MKS_Spied.S178.A12663.html):

http://www.thecarconnection.com/images/gallery/12120_DLGGMYJDGRNYK.jpg
http://www.thecarconnection.com/images/scrapbook/original/4463.jpg
http://www.thecarconnection.com/images/scrapbook/original/4466.jpg

Notice the lovely Chrome Wheels along with the chrome greenhouse trim, mirrors, door handles, and grille. This Lincoln will have plenty of chrome and in my opinion, all the chrome will be a nice contrast to the smooth, clean sided body panels.

Here is the full article that accompanied these pictures:


In January 2006,Lincoln showed the MKS concept car, which they announced would arrive at dealers in spring 2008 as a 2009 model. Now, the latest prototypes of the MKS have been spotted during hot-weather testing in Death Valley.

Despite the disguise on front and rear ends, the production MKS' close relationship to the concept car is evident. Some phony panels at the rear of the roofline disguise its shape but the proportions and even some concept details have emerged intact to this point. The big chrome wheels and door handles in particular keep the classy look.

The MKS' engine will be a 4.4-liter V-8 with 315 horsepower, teamed to a six-speed automatic transmission and all-wheel drive. Inside, the car will feature the latest luxury touches including heated and cooled leather seats, a panoramic glass roof, a navigation system, and Bluetooth.


Please note, we all know that the 4.4 Liter has been scrapped, so this is either an older article, the writer is in denial, or they know something we do not!

Either way, the TF Duratec 3.5 or TF Duratec 3.7 with GDI will be a smoker of an engine and probably out shine the 4.4 Liter V-8.

Still...I can not wait for this car to hit the streets! This, along with the specualtion of Lincoln's version of the Flex, look to be the start of something really great for Lincoln!

As Always...Stay Fabulous!
RG59061

ndwariga
07-18-2007, 09:36 AM
I love seeing the red "self Destruct" button on Ford's spy dash.
Seems like Lincoln will have a looker!!

megeebee
07-18-2007, 09:55 AM
Seems like Lincoln will have a looker!!


As I am so often reminded on this site, it is premature to say such things about a vehicle that one hasn't seen yet (Though I would submit that the world was shown the car in January 2006). This car seems to have the same amount of camo on it as the car shown at the beginning of the thread. If this one seems to look better to anyone it is the fact that the paint finish matches the camo-vinyl.

igor
07-18-2007, 10:01 AM
the base engine will be 3.7l DI V6 - 330hp ..the optional engine will be the TwinForce V6 good for about 380hp - the engine is capable of more, but the transmission is not and we should remember - this is FWD based car .. 380 is plenty for FWD tranverse-engine car.

Second the car will have a DSG type dual clutch automatic transmission - 6 speed.

Three - there will be no more V8 engines in Ford's FWD cars - v8 is RWD territory - FWD cars will top off with the Twin Force V6 engines

Four - the door handles are not chrome - they are white - as is the front bumper and other bits ..

Five - the Lincoln version of the Flex is not a speculation - Job1 is september 2008 - 5 months after the Flex.

Six - I hav to say that the lower intake in the bumper looks cheap .. dissapointment.

Igor

emdee
07-19-2007, 12:17 AM
Unless Igor is a Lincoln or Ford employee, it's perhaps a little premature to be declaring engine displacement and horsepower. I'd be quite surprised to see the standard engine in the MKS have 330 hp. I think people just started using that figure because that's what Nissan/Infinity is getting from it's 3.7 V6 now that they've added direct injection. A few other points: the "white" door handles sure look like tape to me, perhaps to camo whether they're chrome or body color. Or maybe they just didn't anything but primer on them. Then there's the lower grille/air intake. It doesn't look "cheap" to me. Rather, it too looks like a piece of camo. Notice the white panels on the sides of the grille? Surely that's not going to be the real color, so why assume any of it is real. More likely it's a part of the front clip that hasn't been delivered yet by a supplier. That front end is one of the things that has been changed from the original concept car.

All in all, the MKS seems to be looking better than most of us expected, both in design and hardware. I'm still a bit uncertain about the interior though.

igor
07-19-2007, 05:50 AM
;) tust me .. the base engine will be darn close to 330hp .. but no I am not a FoMoCo employee.

Igor

wingsnut
07-19-2007, 06:17 AM
There are many technology enablers like dual VCT (seperate exhaust and intake cam timing) or variable valve lift, as well controllable intake manifolds, that can also be used to add HP, not just DI. The only technology that is currently on the D35 is iVCT and it already exceeds some ot it's competitors in HP which already have those technologies.

igor
07-19-2007, 06:29 AM
There are many technology enablers like dual VCT (seperate exhaust and intake cam timing) or variable valve lift, as well controllable intake manifolds, that can also be used to add HP, not just DI. The only technology that is currently on the D35 is iVCT and it already exceeds some ot it's competitors in HP which already have those technologies.
what is iVCT .. the MKS wil ldebit with Direct injection and twin independent VCT on its base engine ... it might even be tuned for Premium with a knock sensor to further increase the HP rating and mileage rating ...

Igor

wingsnut
07-19-2007, 06:36 AM
iVCT is single-independent
TiVCT is twin-independent

Premium fuel really does allow them to tune for much boosted HP, about 7-10% I believe. It would be acceptable in a Lincoln, but Ford brand is steering clear of that.

igor
07-19-2007, 06:41 AM
iVCT is single-independent
TiVCT is twin-independent

Premium fuel really does allow them to tune for much boosted HP, about 7-10% I believe. It would be acceptable in a Lincoln, but Ford brand is steering clear of that.

oh OK . .that is what I thought .. anyways - the MKS will have TiVCT and DI at launch both applied to the 3.7l Duratec/Cyclone.

yes - premium fuel is a cheat, but Ford is finally saying "f--- it; everyone is doing it why shouldn;t we" - with a tune for premium, you get higher SAE HP and Torque rating and higher EPA Mileage rating ... and all that it costs Ford is a simple knock sensor to adjust the timing when the owner skips the "recommended premium" fuel and goes for the regular. As I said, I do not have confirmed information that MKS will get a premium tune, but I have heard Ford is finally giving in to the premium tune game and will do it on future engines.

Igor

SobeSVT
07-19-2007, 06:48 AM
A few other points: the "white" door handles sure look like tape to me, perhaps to camo whether they're chrome or body color. Or maybe they just didn't anything but primer on them.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/364/picture3ah9.png

It will be body colored with a chrome stripe running in the middle. Mystery solved . . . :cool:

Very much like in the teaser . . .

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7826/picture4mt2.png

wingsnut
07-19-2007, 07:22 AM
I hope this new Lincoln will introduce the ultra-cool new LED side marker technology they have been working on. Instead of rotating beams, that direct light where you want to go, it simply lights-up sequential LED's progressively as you turn. The more you turn, the more light is added as well. You essentially flood the whole road with light, instead of removing it from one direction and pointing it in another. The difference is very dramatic too.

Also, Ford has a cool new technology coming that will work great with the keypad, but I can't say anything more. Look for it on the MKS as well.

emdee
07-20-2007, 12:36 AM
All I can say is if you guys are as right as you are confident, then the MKS just might be a serious hit for Lincoln and the American luxury car market. It sounds like they're going to deliver a major leap forward under the hood, perhaps where Lincoln and Ford need it most. The work they've done recently on the transformation of the 500 into the new Taurus is good enough already to make the MKS seriously good in such areas as noise, vibration and harshness. So that leaves just two major areas they have to prove themselves on. First is ride/drive/handling equation. It needs to ride well, handle responsively and steer with smooth precision. Easier said than done. Finally, they need to build the interior with a pleasing design and high quality materials that look good and feel good. They've "almost" achieved this in some previous vehicles, but have yet to warrant an A grade. Here's hoping... The way for Lincoln and Ford to pull out of the nosedive is simple (at least in words): NO COMPROMISES, NO EXCUSES.

wingsnut
07-20-2007, 03:36 AM
All I can say is if you guys are as right as you are confident, then the MKS just might be a serious hit for Lincoln and the American luxury car market. It sounds like they're going to deliver a major leap forward under the hood, perhaps where Lincoln and Ford need it most. The work they've done recently on the transformation of the 500 into the new Taurus is good enough already to make the MKS seriously good in such areas as noise, vibration and harshness. So that leaves just two major areas they have to prove themselves on. First is ride/drive/handling equation. It needs to ride well, handle responsively and steer with smooth precision. Easier said than done. Finally, they need to build the interior with a pleasing design and high quality materials that look good and feel good. They've "almost" achieved this in some previous vehicles, but have yet to warrant an A grade. Here's hoping... The way for Lincoln and Ford to pull out of the nosedive is simple (at least in words): NO COMPROMISES, NO EXCUSES.

The current MKZ already takes care of your first concern.
And Lincoln has taken care of your second concern as well, as they recently won 2 interior design awards with the MKZ and Navigator.

There appears to be no compromises or excuses and I bet the MKS will equal or better those accomplishments. Don't you?

LincolnFan
07-20-2007, 05:56 PM
I didn't drive the MKZ, but knowing Ford I am not sure if they would be able to tune the suspension right for that kind of vehicle.

SobeSVT
07-20-2007, 06:41 PM
I didn't drive the MKZ, but knowing Ford I am not sure if they would be able to tune the suspension right for that kind of vehicle.
What do you mean? Fusion in America and Mondeo in Europe get nothing but praise when it comes to driving dynamics. What is this that you know about Ford that makes you doubt that the suspension in the MKZ wont be tuned right for a vehicle of its kind?

2b2
07-20-2007, 07:06 PM
The thing I wonder is, considering "traditional" Lincoln customers VS new/target Lincoln customers, would some kind of adjustable suspension be a good idea?

emdee
07-20-2007, 11:31 PM
I think 2b2's got the point. While some folks like the MKZs ride and handling, a number of reviews have complained that it is balanced too far in the "luxury" or soft direction. Similar complaints in reviews about the MKX. One man's "perfect" may be another "sloppy." Maybe an adjustable suspension is the only way to please everyone. But the German companies seem to strike a balance most reviewers find well balanced. How difficult can it be to study those cars and copy their balance? Spring rates, bushings, shock compression and rebound, anti-roll bars, etc. The hardware seems similar enough as BMW just uses MacPherson struts. The Lincoln LS actually had a more sophisticated suspension than the Bimmers. A Lincoln or Ford employee who posts on the Lincoln Luxury Sport Owners Club site ("Alex") is involved in the suspension tuning, having worked on the LS, the Fusion and is now driving around in the MKS. He gave us a lot of confidence that they really do know what they're doing. For me, the balance achieved in the LS was near perfect, but people in areas with rougher roads complained that it was too harsh. Others thought it too soft. Apparently there is no "perfect" feel and the choice of tires makes a big difference. For me, the LS and the Mark VIII never produced an unpleasant sensation in the suspension, never bottomed out, never crashed down on pot holes, etc. If they can at least live up to their own historical standards, I'll be happy.

SobeSVT
07-21-2007, 05:39 AM
This only shows how conditioned we are by car magazines in our opinions. Since they believe that German car are the standard of the world when it comes to sport sedans we have all come to take this opinion as a dogma of faith. The "anything that doesn't behave like a BMW 3 series sucks" attitude is the result of this mental training that affect most car aficionados.

Well, Lexus decided to pay no attention to this mantra and is doing fantastic, or anyone here thinks that a ES350 rides better than an MKZ? The fact is that there are way too many near luxury sport sedans with suspensions mimicking that of a BMW 3 series, why would Lincoln join such a crowded group? Anyway is not like the MKZ nose dives or wobbles on the road.

The adaptable suspension would be a good idea but where the MKZ is right now is not a bad place at all. One of the most repeated reason of those who test drove a 3 series and didn't buy it for their decision is that "harsh ride".

Ach
07-21-2007, 08:42 AM
This only shows how conditioned we are by car magazines in our opinions. Since they believe that German car are the standard of the world when it comes to sport sedans we have all come to take this opinion as a dogma of faith. The "anything that doesn't behave like a BMW 3 series sucks" attitude is the result of this mental training that affect most car aficionados.

Well, Lexus decided to pay no attention to this mantra and is doing fantastic, or anyone here thinks that a ES350 rides better than an MKZ? The fact is that there are way too many near luxury sport sedans with suspensions mimicking that of a BMW 3 series, why would Lincoln join such a crowded group? Anyway is not like the MKZ nose dives or wobbles on the road.

The adaptable suspension would be a good idea but where the MKZ is right now is not a bad place at all. One of the most repeated reason of those who test drove a 3 series and didn't buy it for their decision is that "harsh ride".

Having put nearly 14K miles on my MKZ, let me say that the ride is not floaty or "soft" by any means...I actually think it registers some bumps more harshly than my old Mark VIII LSC, but that's fine with me because it has very good body control at higher speeds just like the Mark. It also stays commendably flat when cornering for a midsize FWD.

Not so successful is the steering. Whereas the Fusion's is well weighted and provides great path control, they lightened it up way too much in the MKZ. It feels very rubbery, has little sense of straight ahead and feels disconnected off-center. It's like they were worried that the Fusion's steering would be too "heavy" for the blue hair crowd so they dialed it back a bunch. A shame, because the steering is just not up to the capabilities of the chassis and prevents the car from being truly fun to drive-almost like the steering and chassis are from two different cars.

2b2
07-21-2007, 12:30 PM
...Not so successful is the steering. Whereas the Fusion's is well weighted and provides great path control, they lightened it up way too much in the MKZ. It feels very rubbery, has little sense of straight ahead and feels disconnected off-center. It's like they were worried that the Fusion's steering would be too "heavy" for the blue hair crowd so they dialed it back a bunch. A shame, because the steering is just not up to the capabilities of the chassis and prevents the car from being tryly fun to drive-almost like the steering and chassis are from two different cars.


Adds adj.steering to my 'Needed Lincoln Features' database... (yup, got one for each brand)
tho I don't know how it could be done without drive-by-wire, which I don't believe is quite ready-for-primetime yet.


btw, the adj.suspension is just part of my FiendishPlan - when they work out the bugs from the fully-intelligent/automatic version (for Lincoln), the driver-selectable one becomes std. on Mercs - along with the top-secret speed-sensitive ride-height control!
muahahaha...

emdee
07-22-2007, 01:34 AM
I think one of the ways that BMW always seems to please the reviewers while not offending their "real" buyers is that they are always selling at least two different versions of their cars and their suspensions. The reviewers, who drive mostly on good roads and for only a short time, always are given versions with the BMW sport suspension. These include different springs and shocks as well as lower profile, higher diameter tires. On good roads, such setups are great, firm but still supple and reasonably comfortable. Put them on a typical pockmarked highway though and a lot of drivers will find them too harsh. But it seldom matters because the average BMW customer buys what the local dealer keeps in stock. In places with good roads, the dealer features cars with the sport suspension option. But in places with less perfect roads, they load the lot with cars with the standard, non-sport suspension, which offers a more ride-oriented setup. Everyone goes home happy, thinking "boy aren't those German engineers smart!" In reality, all they've done is offer a cheap substitute for adjustable suspension. Lincoln mimicked this to some extent in the LS, which in its early years had two distinct suspension settings. They were less clear though about how to market the cars and people didn't always know what they getting. The difference between the two settings wasn't large enough for many people to notice.

LincolnFan
07-22-2007, 06:18 AM
What do you mean? Fusion in America and Mondeo in Europe get nothing but praise when it comes to driving dynamics. What is this that you know about Ford that makes you doubt that the suspension in the MKZ wont be tuned right for a vehicle of its kind?

Ford just doesn't seem to do it right in Lincoln, with the exception of the LS. When was the last time we had a decent handling Lincoln? The FWD Continentals? lol. They keep focusing on their on the 65 and over buyers when tuning the suspension and that's why I have no faith in Ford when designing Lincoln suspensions. Like what Ach said, it seems they finally broke the pattern but they ruined the steering, typical Ford, Hello? Bold Moves anyone? I hope you're right emdee about the MKS.

The LS was perfect, but it's biggest problem was the Aluminium suspension components. They cost a LOT of money.

I just hope Lincoln start getting a computer controllable ride soon and I hope it becomes standard, Lincoln sedans should also have sport package options! I know they're FWD, but even FWD can be made fun to drive. Drive any C1/C170 car and you will know what I mean.

SobeSVT
07-22-2007, 06:31 AM
Ford just doesn't seem to do it right in Lincoln, with the exception of the LS. When was the last time we had a decent handling Lincoln? The FWD Continentals? lol. They keep focusing on their on the 65 and over buyers when tuning the suspension and that's why I have no faith in Ford when designing Lincoln suspensions. Like what Ach said, it seems they finally broke the pattern but they ruined the steering, typical Ford, Hello? Bold Moves anyone? I hope you're right emdee about the MKS.

The LS was perfect, but it's biggest problem was the Aluminium suspension components. They cost a LOT of money.

I just hope Lincoln start getting a computer controllable ride soon and I hope it becomes standard, Lincoln sedans should also have sport package options! I know they're FWD, but even FWD can be made fun to drive. Drive any C1/C170 car and you will know what I mean.
You read too many magazines. ;)

wingsnut
07-22-2007, 06:38 AM
Lincoln knows it's customers well and that is why you are seeing a resurgence in sales - before they are done rolling out their new products. They also know that young males who are 18-25 years of age who talk the "handling" game are not the ones who are buying their current MKZ entry-level luxury-biased sedan. The MKS should be tuned similar to the MKZ, with a slight bias toward luxury too as most customers prefer it, because again, not too many college kids who chime in regularly on message boards such as these will be buying it either.

But don't fret, you hi-po-luxury fans, low-volume performance versions will soon be offered in addition to Lincoln's bread-and-butter sellers:)

LincolnFan
07-22-2007, 01:19 PM
But don't fret, you hi-po-luxury fans, low-volume performance versions will soon be offered in addition to Lincoln's bread-and-butter sellers:)

FWD Performance? Errr.... Didn't Ford learn from the Impala SS? I doubt AWD can help much.. (I am guessing you're talking about the GTTDI V6 for Lincoln?).

SobeSVT
07-22-2007, 01:59 PM
FWD Performance? Errr.... Didn't Ford learn from the Impala SS? I doubt AWD can help much.. (I am guessing you're talking about the GTTDI V6 for Lincoln?).
The Impala SS is a GM mistake. Rather than learn from the Impala SS, Ford could learn from Audi A4 and A6, with which by the way AWD works just fine. Just a thought.

Mbukukanyau
07-22-2007, 02:33 PM
The Impala SS is a GM mistake. Rather than learn from the Impala SS, Ford could learn from Audi A4 and A6, with which by the way AWD works just fine. Just a thought.
The Impala SS did not do well becouse the LTZ is soo much more, without the Torque steer.
Currently, the only Sedan, I would consinder instead of the Impala LTZ is the Taurus AWD. The Impala is a solid, well built, well designed Sedan.

There is no real economic or rational reason, today, to buy an Accord or Camry over the Impala

SobeSVT
07-22-2007, 03:11 PM
The Impala SS did not do well becouse the LTZ is soo much more, without the Torque steer.
Currently, the only Sedan, I would consinder instead of the Impala LTZ is the Taurus AWD. The Impala is a solid, well built, well designed Sedan.

There is no real economic or rational reason, today, to buy an Accord or Camry over the Impala
I didn't bring up the Impala into this. But in any case the Impala does not compete with the Accord or Camry but with the Taurus and Avalon. The competitor to the Accord and Camry in Chevy's lineup is the Malibu.

But going back into the real point of the thread, Lincoln. I see much more logic to compare whatever effort Lincoln is gong to do on performance oriented special FWD/AWD models to what Audi has done than to what Chevy has done. You don't have to take offense on everything I say about GMs product.

Mbukukanyau
07-22-2007, 03:42 PM
I didn't bring up the Impala into this. But in any case the Impala does not compete with the Accord or Camry but with the Taurus and Avalon. The competitor to the Accord and Camry in Chevy's lineup is the Malibu.

But going back into the real point of the thread, Lincoln. I see much more logic to compare whatever effort Lincoln is gong to do on performance oriented special FWD/AWD models to what Audi has done than to what Chevy has done. You don't have to take offense on everything I say about GMs product.
from a price perspective, the impala plays in this class , but yes, this is a Lincoln thread

LincolnFan
07-22-2007, 04:14 PM
But going back into the real point of the thread, Lincoln. I see much more logic to compare whatever effort Lincoln is gong to do on performance oriented special FWD/AWD models to what Audi has done than to what Chevy has done. You don't have to take offense on everything I say about GMs product.

I wasn't comparing the MKS to the Impala, FWD will never handle as good as RWD. Sure Audis are nice. But their AWD systems aren't cheap.

I want Lincoln to be a real competitor in the market, that's why I will nitpick anything they do wrong.

SobeSVT
07-22-2007, 05:20 PM
from a price perspective, the impala plays in this class , but yes, this is a Lincoln thread
Then, is grossly overpriced . . .

I wasn't comparing the MKS to the Impala, FWD will never handle as good as RWD. Sure Audis are nice. But their AWD systems aren't cheap.
. . . and Lincoln does not compete in cheap segments.

LincolnFan
07-22-2007, 06:03 PM
Then, is grossly overpriced . . .

. . . and Lincoln does not compete in cheap segments.

They don't, but their AWD system is the same as the Ford system. I am not saying the Ford system is bad, but it's more of a slip detector/avoider than a real AWD like the Subbie/Audi ones.

I hope the AWD system in the MKS is a better unit! The MKS will need it. I hope it will be Standard too. The MKS will have 300 or more HP.

SobeSVT
07-22-2007, 06:19 PM
They don't, but their AWD system is the same as the Ford system. I am not saying the Ford system is bad, but it's more of a slip detector/avoider than a real AWD like the Subbie/Audi ones.

I hope the AWD system in the MKS is a better unit! The MKS will need it. I hope it will be Standard too. The MKS will have 300 or more HP.
By "their AWD system" do you mean the AWD system in the MKZ? Have you read any reviews or know how it works? How is it cheap?

Logic would indicate are that the AWD system in the MKS will be the Haldex system found in the Volvos CX90, S60 and V70 among others. There is nothing cheap about it and its RW biased, I guess that should please you. It is also important to mention that this same system is used in cars like the Audi TT Quattro, Volkswagen Passat 4Motion, Ford Taurus, Ford Taurus X and Bugatti Veyron. I guess that your cheapness concern are unfounded and maybe it is Ford who is using ultra high technology on their cars. Who knew?

wingsnut
07-22-2007, 06:21 PM
The Haldex AWD system is simple yet lightweight, fuel efficient (very important), is electronically controlled and can be biased for front or rear. It is a great system.

From Wikipedia:

Haldex is a Swedish company manufacturing for example the Haldex limited slip coupling used in vehicles with automatic all wheel drive systems to engage and disengage a secondary axle when needed.

Among European car fans "Haldex" refers to the aforementioned differential system: its most prominent use is in all transverse engine 4x4 models of the VWAG group: (Audi A3 and TT, Volkswagen Golf and Passat), making them non-permanent 4x4s, unlike longitudinal engine models (Audi A4, A6, A8) which use a Torsen-like differential. However, its short reaction time (only a seventh of a wheel spin) amply makes up for its non-permanent AWD (like Torsen) setup.

Also noteworthy is that purists despise the fact that "low end" Audis equipped with the "Haldex system" bear the same name (quattro) as their "greater" brethren using the Torsen differential. This is nothing more than confusion over nomenclature; due to the fact that the original Audi Quattro coupe did use a torque-sensing center differential (not Torsen, however), many fans believe that "quattro" refers to said type of AWD system, not realizing that it is simply a trademark (It is interesting to note that "quattro" is also used on the Audi Q7 SUV, which uses neither Torsen nor Haldex; instead, it uses a BorgWarner system.


[edit] Haldex Traction
Haldex Traction is a part of the Haldex Group that is respensible for the manufacturing and marketing of the Haldex AWD system.

The Haldex AWD system is currently used in the following vehicle models:

Volkswagen Golf 4Motion
Volkswagen Bora 4Motion
Volkswagen Beetle RSi
Volkswagen Passat 4Motion
Volkswagen Sharan 4Motion
Volkswagen Multivan 4Motion
Audi A3/S3 Quattro
Audi TT Quattro
Skoda Octavia 4x4
Seat León
Seat Alhambra
Volvo S40 AWD
Volvo V50 AWD
Volvo S60 AWD
Volvo S60R AWD
Volvo V70 AWD
Volvo V70R AWD
Volvo XC70
Volvo S80 AWD
Volvo XC90
Bugatti Veyron
Ford Freestyle
Ford Five Hundred
Mercury Montego
Land Rover LR2
-------------------------------


So if it is good enough to work in many other high priced and sporty vehicles as seen above, then it will work fine in the base MKS and a solid value as well.

ndwariga
07-22-2007, 06:33 PM
The Haldex AWD system is simple yet lightweight, fuel efficient (very important), is electronically controlled and can be biased for front or rear. It is a great system.

From Wikipedia:



So if it is good enough to work in many other high priced and sporty vehicles as seen above, then it will work fine in the base MKS and a solid value as well.what system is the Saab 9-3 XWD using?

wingsnut
07-22-2007, 06:34 PM
^ From same source,

The fourth generation Haldex system is called XWD (pronounced Cross-Wheel Drive) and will debut on the 2008.5 Saab 9-3.

The XWD system is based on completely new technology and includes such features as

Active rear electronic limited slip differential.
Pre-emptive engagement of rear wheels under hard acceleration.

2b2
07-22-2007, 06:45 PM
^^re: the wiki-list above; what do the CD3's use?

wingsnut
07-22-2007, 07:00 PM
^^re: the wiki-list above; what do the CD3's use?


I looked briefly, but couyld not find it. I seem to recall they use an in-house modified version of the Haldex system, as seen below.

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/images/fordcom/bn/Haldex_small.gif

SobeSVT
07-22-2007, 07:03 PM
^^re: the wiki-list above; what do the CD3's use?
Is not Haldex but an all new system designed by Ford and Mazda. Ford says its an intelligent all-wheel-drive (AWD) system that was tuned with an emphasis on luxury performance and confident all-weather driving. The system actively and seamlessly delivers torque to all four wheels, even before wheel slippage occurs. An active on-demand coupler delivers the precise amount of torque needed to the rear wheels. Paired with available traction control, intelligent AWD can transfer torque front-to-rear and side-to-side.

For some reason that I don't know, LincolnFan thinks its a cheap system.


All-Wheel Drive Adds Brains To Traction
Ford Motor Company Press Release

Ford's all-wheel drive (AWD) system is coming on the 2007 Ford Fusion, Lincoln MKZ, Mercury Milan, Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX.

"Literally in the blink of an eye, the system gauges the conditions of the vehicle and applies power to the most appropriate wheels to maintain optimal traction," said Robert Parker, Ford car marketing manager. "The system monitors the vehicle's condition 100 times a second. At highway speeds, the system can react within 1/8 of a turn of the wheel."

Unlike four-wheel drive (4WD) which depends upon the driver to shift into 4WD mode, an all-wheel drive system continuously monitor's the vehicle's condition and takes actions independently. To the driver, the shift of power from wheel to wheel is seamless.

The all-wheel drive system monitors what's happening with the wheels on the road along with the driver's inputs such as turns of the steering wheel and the pressure applied to the accelerator. Not only is power and traction varied on the wheels, the system can also change the engine speed if it's too fast for the situation, for example if the driver panics and hits the accelerator when the situation calls for less speed.

"A major advantage of all wheel drive is the flexibility to shift power or apply braking to any wheel," Parker said. "In the past we could either shift power from back to front or from front to rear. With advances in AWD technology, we can shift power to the exact wheel or wheels with the best traction."

In the AWD technology destined for the 2007 models, a vehicle like the Fusion or MXZ is typically front-wheel drive. Power goes to the front wheels, which in turn pull the vehicle along. Because the engine rests over the front of the vehicle, the weight provides greater traction to the wheels both pulling and steering the car.

If, however, the system senses a loss of traction it shifts power to any or all of the wheels. The obvious benefit occurs under slippery road conditions, but the all-wheel drive system provides optimal traction under a number of less obvious situations.

For example, a common problem with front-wheel drive vehicles is understeer, typically seen in cornering. If a front-wheel drive vehicle accelerates into a turn, too much weight can be shifted to the rear, causing loss of traction in the front wheels. The front of the vehicle can go towards the outside of the turn when the driver is aiming to turn the car sharply.

All-wheel drive automatically compensates either by adjusting the power to the wheels, altering engine speed or both.

Ford is becoming a leader in AWD technology, expecting to sell approximately 500,000 AWD-equipped vehicles annually, beginning in 2007. And while the technology is the current hot trend, the motivation behind its introduction in the company's vehicles is the same old story at Ford.

"Henry Ford began the company with the idea of making the desirable affordable," Parker said. "That's basically what we're doing -- making AWD technology available and affordable to a broad range of customers."
__________________

ndwariga
07-22-2007, 07:10 PM
Is not Haldex but an all new system designed by Ford and Mazda. Ford says its an intelligent all-wheel-drive (AWD) system that was tuned with an emphasis on luxury performance and confident all-weather driving. The system actively and seamlessly delivers torque to all four wheels, even before wheel slippage occurs. An active on-demand coupler delivers the precise amount of torque needed to the rear wheels. Paired with available traction control, intelligent AWD can transfer torque front-to-rear and side-to-side.

For some reason that I don't know, LincolnFan thinks its a cheap system.
what does it matter if its cheap and does its job well? Its like a Ferrari racing aganist a Corvette. What does it matter if you paid more if you loose the race?
Thats not to say there is no prestige in the Ferrari, but, in an AWD system, burried in deep mechanical underworld of a car, al lyou need is perfomance and features for the price you paid, not what the company paid to install it into your purchase.

wingsnut
07-22-2007, 07:35 PM
I understand Lincolnfan's desire for Lincoln to offer a system like Nissan's ATTESA E-TS, which is a RWD torque-sensing AWD system, but it is not needed in a car like the MKS. At least not until it offers more power. The MKS will have a significantly modified version of what we see in the Taurus - which is already a good system.

The problems with AWD set-ups like the ATTESA E-TS system is it's heavy weight (similar to conventional truck 4x4 transfer cases, complete with another driveshaft to the front axle), cost and fuel efficiency is compromised. The MKS is biased for affordable full size luxury, and increasing FE is not a bad thing these days either.

Here is more from wiki:

ATTESA E-TS is featured in the north-south layout vehicles, and was first used in August 1989 in the Nissan Skyline GT-R and Nissan Skyline GTS4. It utilizes what is mostly a conventional RWD gearbox. Although the Skyline GT-R is exclusively AWD, ATTESA E-TS is also used in Nissan models that are also available as RWD such as the A31 Nissan Cefiro which was the second Nissan to feature the system exactly a year later in August 1990. Drive to the rear wheels is constant via a tailshaft and rear differential, however drive to the front wheels is more complex by utilizing a transfer case at the rear of the gearbox. The drive for the front wheels comes from a transfer case bolted on the end of an almost traditional RWD transmission although the (bell housing is slightly different to allow the driveshaft for thr front wheels to pass it, the main body is exactly the same as the RWD transmission, the tail-shaft is different to couple to the transfer case). A short driveshaft for the front wheels exits the transfer case on the right side. Inside the transfer case a chain drives a multi-plate wet clutch pack, torque is apportioned using a clutch pack center differential, similar to the type employed in the Steyr-Daimler-Puch system in the Porsche 959. On the rear differential is a high pressure electric oil pump, this pump pressurises Normal ATF oil (0-288psi) into the transfercase to engage the clutchpack. The higher the oil pressure the transfer case is supplied with, the more the clutch pack engages, this is how the torque to the front wheels is varied. The transfer case has its own dedicated ATF (nissan special ATF) oil to lubricate the chain/clutch pack. The front driveshaft runs along the right side of the transmission, into a differential located on the right of the engine's oilpan. The front right axle is shorter than the left, as the differential is closer to the right wheel. The front left axle runs through the engine's sump to the left wheel.

LincolnFan
07-22-2007, 07:44 PM
The CD3 use a Mazda/in-house unit. They don't use the Haldex IIRC.

Again, Ford DIDN'T tune the AWD system for performance nor luxury in the MKZ, it's the same tune in the Fusion. It's not RWD biased as you might think. It's a slip detector that has the ability to transfer 100 percent of the power to the rear wheels.

When you're moving forward and nothing is distrupting it, it's %100 FWD!!

Ford shound tune it for the MKS and the MKZ. Again Sobe I didn't pick the name LincolnFan because I am a hypocrite, Lincoln is my favorite brand imo.

EDIT: Sobe, I don't think it's a cheap unit. I think Ford is not using it's potential. They're more like slip detectors.

BTW, IIRC Ford stopped using the Haldex in 2007 in the D3s.. They started using their own unit.
Again, I repeat myself. I DON'T think it's cheap. What is cheap though is just making it a slip detector, that might be convenient on the Taurus with sub-270 HP, but when you go up you need to tune it to move more power to the rear wheels..

Wingsnut, the MKS will get the TF which will not have less than 380HP. That's enough power to justify a special AWD tune, it should be rear biased in a car like that.

wingsnut
07-22-2007, 08:02 PM
Wingsnut, the MKS will get the TF which will not have less than 380HP. That's enough power to justify a special AWD tune, it should be rear biased in a car like that.

The D35 GTTDI will easily attain that kind of power, but it is at least another 12-14 months away.

The MKS will debut in a few months with the D37.

I am not sure exactly when the MKS will see a performance version using the GTTDI engine, but I have no doubt that it will have an entirely different (new) transmission, and will probably use an in-house modified AWD system, not unlike the XWD setup that SAAB uses that offers active rear electronic limited slip differential, and pre-emptive engagement of rear wheels under hard acceleration. That's part of the beauty of the the Haldex design, it is totally programmable.

LincolnFan
07-22-2007, 08:08 PM
The D35 GTTDI will easily attain that kind of power, but it is at least another 12-14 months away.

I don't think the TF is that far... more like 6 ~ 8 months after the MKS goes on sale.

wingsnut
07-22-2007, 08:16 PM
I don't think the TF is that far... more like 6 ~ 8 months after the MKS goes on sale.


8 months after the MKS arrives in 6-8 months. That is 14-16 months.

emdee
07-23-2007, 01:16 AM
Here're a few points from a Ford/Lincoln suspension engineer who posts on another Lincoln site. There will be no FWD MKS models with 330 HP. In testing, the FWD version was not plagued by torque steer, as expected, but by excessive lift, which in turn was causing the half shafts to fail. There appear to be two solutions under way. First is that FWD version will have a more modest HP tune, and secondly, "expensive retooling" is being done. It wasn't clear if this "retooling" would be be finished in time for the product launch, or if it in turn would allow higher power ratings, which will otherwide be limited to the AWD version. Second, if I understood it correctly, the AWD system will not be the Haldex system used on the Volvo S80, but something different.

Now, this part is just my opinion. I think this whole debate over FWD and the various approaches to AWD don't make nearly as much difference in the real world as it seems to in debating class and car mags. To even approach the type of driving where the drive system will make a significant difference, the driver has to either be on a professional rally course or driving irresponsibly and dangerously. While I prefer the feel of RWD, it doesn't make one whit of difference in actual driving. The Taurus SHO I had in '97-99 allowed me all the driving fun I could possibly get away with without getting arrested or endangering others on the road. So could the LS V8 I've driven since '01. My '93 Mark VIII was a lot of fun too, but was by far the least competent of the three at high speeds, RWD and all. What I'm saying is the the capabilities of all modern cars of these classes, whether front, rear or all wheel drive, were far beyond the range of reasonable driving. They all have a fairly large safety margin. I know this might tick some folks off, but to actually experience the superiority of one of these types of drive over the others on public roads you have to be driving in a way that warrants loosing your license. It's kind of like arguing over whether having a top speed of 160 makes a car better than one that only goes 150. Car magazines sold the world on the "benefits" of front drive when it was all the rage in the late 60's, with tales of Saabs and Audi Quattros. But when FWD came to grace such things as the Chrysler "K" cars and their like, the pendulum swung back in favor of RWD. The real bottom line is that a good suspension and tuning job can make either system competent and fun. The rest is a purely subjective matter of feel and marketing. IMHO.

SobeSVT
07-23-2007, 04:46 AM
Here're a few points from a Ford/Lincoln suspension engineer who posts on another Lincoln site. There will be no FWD MKS models with 330 HP. In testing, the FWD version was not plagued by torque steer, as expected, but by excessive lift, which in turn was causing the half shafts to fail. There appear to be two solutions under way. First is that FWD version will have a more modest HP tune, and secondly, "expensive retooling" is being done. It wasn't clear if this "retooling" would be be finished in time for the product launch, or if it in turn would allow higher power ratings, which will otherwide be limited to the AWD version. Second, if I understood it correctly, the AWD system will not be the Haldex system used on the Volvo S80, but something different.

Now, this part is just my opinion. I think this whole debate over FWD and the various approaches to AWD don't make nearly as much difference in the real world as it seems to in debating class and car mags. To even approach the type of driving where the drive system will make a significant difference, the driver has to either be on a professional rally course or driving irresponsibly and dangerously. While I prefer the feel of RWD, it doesn't make one whit of difference in actual driving. The Taurus SHO I had in '97-99 allowed me all the driving fun I could possibly get away with without getting arrested or endangering others on the road. So could the LS V8 I've driven since '01. My '93 Mark VIII was a lot of fun too, but was by far the least competent of the three at high speeds, RWD and all. What I'm saying is the the capabilities of all modern cars of these classes, whether front, rear or all wheel drive, were far beyond the range of reasonable driving. They all have a fairly large safety margin. I know this might tick some folks off, but to actually experience the superiority of one of these types of drive over the others on public roads you have to be driving in a way that warrants loosing your license. It's kind of like arguing over whether having a top speed of 160 makes a car better than one that only goes 150. Car magazines sold the world on the "benefits" of front drive when it was all the rage in the late 60's, with tales of Saabs and Audi Quattros. But when FWD came to grace such things as the Chrysler "K" cars and their like, the pendulum swung back in favor of RWD. The real bottom line is that a good suspension and tuning job can make either system competent and fun. The rest is a purely subjective matter of feel and marketing. IMHO.

WOW emdee! You don't speak much but what a great post!

Diesel/_
09-01-2007, 08:38 AM
Yes, I know it's spelled "MKS", but MkS is less confusing.

Michigan-based reader Alan Adilman spotted something on his daily drive this week that caught his eye, and he thoughtfully snapped the pic you see above and sent it our way. Alan was unsure of what the disguised prototype was, but we're able to clear that up. It's the 2009 Lincoln MKS, which, if we had to guess, will bow in January at the Detroit Auto Show. When Ford reveals the car, expect to see Lincoln's new winged grille up front, as well as a TwinForce V6 in the top-end model's engine bay. Both were previewed on the 2007 MKR concept. Until the big day, however, it will continue skulking about Michigan looking like a Taurus wearing a couple of really extreme bras.

You can check out the other spy pics we've picked up along the way, as well as shots of the original concept in the galleries below. Thanks for the new photo, Alan!
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/06/lincolnmks.int1.kgp.ed.jpg
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/06/lincolnmks.fc.kgp.ed.jpg
Enjoy.
What's the red button for?

megeebee
09-01-2007, 03:21 PM
We've seen these.

Check:"MKS Interior (clear) Spypics"

ndwariga
09-01-2007, 07:48 PM
I noticed a theme here
http://photo.ringo.com/230/230856217RL694519676.jpg (http://photo.ringo.com/230/230856217O694519676.jpg)

SobeSVT
09-02-2007, 09:27 AM
I noticed a theme here
http://photo.ringo.com/230/230856217RL694519676.jpg (http://photo.ringo.com/230/230856217O694519676.jpg)

I wish I had your powers of abstraction . . . :D.. oooh Great Tut, who cools the nile for us to drink

ndwariga
09-02-2007, 10:52 AM
^^^. Being Tut, I noticed the air condationing Vents, in relation to the Navigation Unit/Radio, up on the dash do look alike, its a Lincoln Stlying cue, I think:D

megeebee
09-02-2007, 03:06 PM
What's the red button for?



Self destruct. It was supposed to be used when any spy photographer got close enough to take pictures like this. I guess it didn't work. I'm sure it will be sorted out by the time production begins.