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: Ford concedes Camaro will outsell Mustang this year -- so what?



SobeSVT
12-23-2010, 04:51 AM
Ford concedes Camaro will outsell Mustang this year -- so what?
Automotive News (http://www.autonews.com/article/20101222/BLOG06/101229949/-1)
JAMES B. TREECE
December 22, 2010 - 3:47 pm ET


George Pipas, Fordís sales analyst, told a group of reporters this week that the automaker isnít particularly concerned about the Chevrolet Camaro outselling the Mustang this year for the first time since 1985.

ďIf that was important, we wouldn't have taken a shift off at Flat Rock,Ē the Michigan factory that builds the Mustang, he said.

Yet another sign that Fordís insistence that it will only chase profitable sales is for real.


Full text at the link

FordRacing88
12-25-2010, 01:29 PM
I can think of a few reasons why the Camaro outsold the Mustang this year, and the biggest is what's under the hood. I don't care what techno crap Ford can do with that OHC engine, most American muscle car guys are NOT going to buy that Mustang. Why? Because to turn the stock 5.0 into a true performance engine, basically a street legal race engine, it costs at least twice as much over a LS3. With Chevrolet bringing back the Camaro, its opened up a market for new muscle car guys. Middle class muscle car fans can now afford a stock muscle car with that badass LS3. You no longer have to buy a Corvette or do an all out engine swap to have a car with a LS3 in you driveway. I work at Summit, trust me I know who's selling the most aftermarket pieces right now for new cars and that's the LS3 Camaro. Until the Ford Board of Directors pulls their heads out of their asses the Mustang will continue to be outsold, especially when it comes to the performance guys, as long as GM doesn't screw it up themselves. Ford needs to return a OHV V8 to the Mustang and I would guarantee you sales would increase. Plus 40K for a Mustang? Really? That's way over-priced. I don't care what freaking year it is or what techno crap is on it as well. I also used to be a Ford mechanic, and let me tell you the modular engines were outrageous in maintenance costs compared to the Windsors. I can't even remember how may times customers would complain about how high the bills would be just for a tune up. It would be near a thousand dollars if they got the full tune up with new coil packs.

SobeSVT
12-25-2010, 02:58 PM
I can think of a few reasons why the Camaro outsold the Mustang this year, and the biggest is what's under the hood. I don't care what techno crap Ford can do with that OHC engine, most American muscle car guys are NOT going to buy that Mustang. Why? Because to turn the stock 5.0 into a true performance engine, basically a street legal race engine, it costs at least twice as much over a LS3. With Chevrolet bringing back the Camaro, its opened up a market for new muscle car guys. Middle class muscle car fans can now afford a stock muscle car with that badass LS3. You no longer have to buy a Corvette or do an all out engine swap to have a car with a LS3 in you driveway. I work at Summit, trust me I know who's selling the most aftermarket pieces right now for new cars and that's the LS3 Camaro. Until the Ford Board of Directors pulls their heads out of their asses the Mustang will continue to be outsold, especially when it comes to the performance guys, as long as GM doesn't screw it up themselves. Ford needs to return a OHV V8 to the Mustang and I would guarantee you sales would increase. Plus 40K for a Mustang? Really? That's way over-priced. I don't care what freaking year it is or what techno crap is on it as well.

Of course . . . because I am sure the vast majority of Camaro buyers bought them to "turn them into true performers" . . .

The Camaro outsold the Mustang because Camaro returned after 5 years of absence to an starved public and GM did it the right way, period.

Before getting all sanctimonious about Ford Board of Directors (as if the production and technical details of the Mustang was a decision by the BoD anyway . . . ) you should have considered two facts that are out there for everyone to see:


As hard as it may be to sallow for a Ford fan the Camaro is a great looking car in its own right, a real showroom magnet. At first the public got captivated by its beautiful lines, now that the Camaro is a common sight its many practical and dynamic deficiencies are plying a major role in its sales and are trending downwards (more of that is the following point). Because frankly the general public, cares more about how a car turns or if they can see out of a window or how massive or not their ride is than whether the engine is OHV or OHC or whatever.
Mustang sales are in an upward trend while Camaro's are in decline and that's a trend that has been consistent for a few month already. You only have to pull up the sales charts for both Ford and GM. The new engines for the Mustang weren't available until may or so, by then the Camaro had already taken a considerably advantage. The fact that Camaro outsold the Mustang by less that 7,500 vehicles is testament on how much Mustang sales are improving.


The Mustang GT has had an OHC V8 since 1995. Conceding the sales crown to the Camaro for one year is hardly an indictment on the technology. And never during none of those 15 years has the Mustang GT had a better engine than the one it has today . . . the bulk of the sales are V6 equipped cars, how does that fit into your theory.

ndwariga
12-25-2010, 04:00 PM
Well, this is not a race but a marathon. The mother of pony cars has proved to last longer.. There is 2011

timmm55
12-25-2010, 04:11 PM
That Bad BIG ASS Camaro LS3 is slower than the 5.0. THAT'S reality. If the Camaro people think they need Summit gear to catch up, they are right. There are other places to shop for speed parts. How many M3 shoppers are there at Summit? How many M3 owners have mullets?

SobeSVT
12-25-2010, 04:15 PM
That Bad BIG ASS Camaro LS3 is slower than the 5.0. THAT'S reality. If the Camaro people think they need Summit gear to catch up, they are right. There are other places to shop for speed parts. How many M3 shoppers are there at Summit? How many M3 owners have mullets?
Brilliant!! :)

ndwariga
12-26-2010, 12:14 AM
power to weight ratio. The Mustang is superior in that category
That Bad BIG ASS Camaro LS3 is slower than the 5.0. THAT'S reality. If the Camaro people think they need Summit gear to catch up, they are right. There are other places to shop for speed parts. How many M3 shoppers are there at Summit? How many M3 owners have mullets?

3Mach1
12-26-2010, 01:32 AM
The Camaro outsold the Mustang because Camaro returned after 5 years of absence to an starved public and GM did it the right way, period.

Actually, the last Camaro built was in 2002 so its been longer than 5 years. I almost bought one but by the time I could afford one they were gone.


The Mustang GT has had an OHC V8 since 1995.

Not nick picking but the first OHC 4.6 came out in 1996. They were woefully underpowered early on and it nearly drove me over to the dark side. I remember those days and Mustangers were screaming at the top of their lungs for more power. Whats interesting and I dont have the numbers handy was that it still sold good. There was a big surge in 1995 to those who knew the OHC was coming and they wanted the last of the 5 liter Windsor push rod engines.

The 4.6 evolved well over time. 1999 was the first year it got better heads and a significant power bump. The 96-_98 dohc were good. Problem was you had to drop a lot more coin just to run with the lt1 and ls1. Who could forget the 99 Cobra fiasco? Ford learned their lesson on that one and has been conservative ever since with hp ratings. Never the less, the 01 dohc and 03-04 Mach dohc did well not to mention the 03-04 blown Cobras. Those Cobras even to this day are wicked fast.

05 brought us the 3v and it has done pretty good even though it had no real competition. 07 brought the 5.4 4v blown shelby and it keeps getting better. I dont think power is the end all to sales. It sure helps in many cases but the new 5 liter lays down on a dyno almost the exact same power as the ls3 hp wise. WE know how it translates to the track.

The Camaro is too heavy. Thats the bottom line. Great engine but I think of it as a modern day monte carlo. I hate the interior but like the exterior. My personal opinion is that GMs quality is not up to snuff and this car had major issues when it was launched. People didnt care because they had waited 8 years to get their hands on one. Imagine if the Mustang disappeared for that long? While its not a big volume seller for Ford its a halo car. People love pony cars. Lets see what the future brings and I have no problem with the new 5.0. In fact, I would love to have one.

SobeSVT
12-26-2010, 07:40 AM
Not nick picking but the first OHC 4.6 came out in 1996. They were woefully underpowered early on and it nearly drove me over to the dark side. I remember those days and Mustangers were screaming at the top of their lungs for more power. Whats interesting and I don't have the numbers handy was that it still sold good. There was a big surge in 1995 to those who knew the OHC was coming and they wanted the last of the 5 liter Windsor push rod engines.


My bad. I could have sworn the the "modular V8" was introduced in 1995 for the second year of the massive remodeling of the Fox platform based Mustang (N-95). I did a quick search and it seems you are right . . . my point still stands though ;)

wingsnut
12-26-2010, 08:09 AM
At least Ford does not have to concede that stang beats camaro where it matters, road and track.

SullyND
12-26-2010, 12:07 PM
How many dozens will it outsell it by?

FordRacing88
12-27-2010, 11:35 AM
Of course . . . because I am sure the vast majority of Camaro buyers bought them to "turn them into true performers" . . .

The Camaro outsold the Mustang because Camaro returned after 5 years of absence to an starved public and GM did it the right way, period.

Before getting all sanctimonious about Ford Board of Directors (as if the production and technical details of the Mustang was a decision by the BoD anyway . . . ) you should have considered two facts that are out there for everyone to see:


As hard as it may be to sallow for a Ford fan the Camaro is a great looking car in its own right, a real showroom magnet. At first the public got captivated by its beautiful lines, now that the Camaro is a common sight its many practical and dynamic deficiencies are plying a major role in its sales and are trending downwards (more of that is the following point). Because frankly the general public, cares more about how a car turns or if they can see out of a window or how massive or not their ride is than whether the engine is OHV or OHC or whatever.
Mustang sales are in an upward trend while Camaro's are in decline and that's a trend that has been consistent for a few month already. You only have to pull up the sales charts for both Ford and GM. The new engines for the Mustang weren't available until may or so, by then the Camaro had already taken a considerably advantage. The fact that Camaro outsold the Mustang by less that 7,500 vehicles is testament on how much Mustang sales are improving.


The Mustang GT has had an OHC V8 since 1995. Conceding the sales crown to the Camaro for one year is hardly an indictment on the technology. And never during none of those 15 years has the Mustang GT had a better engine than the one it has today . . . the bulk of the sales are V6 equipped cars, how does that fit into your theory.

Like I said the Mustang sales are lower as far as the GT and V8 Camaro go because of that boat anchor 5.0. That engine is overrated and over priced. Tell me whats the most successful engine as of the last 10 years in aftermarket sales? Oh yeah the GM LS series, not Ford's modular engines. Heck Ford's old Windsor engines sell WAY better than the mod stuff in the aftermarket as a whole, and they've been gone for over 10 years! Go down to a Fun Ford weekend and see how many Mustangs past 1996 have been swapped to an old OHV engine. You'd be amazed, I know I am because I always wonder how so many people can afford to do that personally. If that doesn't satisfy you, go to an NMRA and see who's running the OHC engines. A very slim handful of guys that have to run in there own class to keep from getting their ass beat. And they gave the modular engines their own class a few years ago because they couldn't run with the OHV engines. Then I want you to consider what I'm saying. Heck look it up online and check their rosters for all I care. Ford Racing, and other aftermarket sellers, still sell 5 times as many parts to this day for the old 5.0 and 5.8, nearly 15 years since their absence from the Mustang. The 4.6, 5.4, and the new 5.0 sales are pathetic in comparison and if you don't believe me, look it up. Oh and there's plenty of aftermarket pieces for those engines as well, including the new 5.0. What I was saying is that until Ford pulls out the OHC and replaces with a OHV, then a lot of American performance guys will NOT buy it for that reason. And the sales are showing it. The Camaro outsold the Mustang for this year and I bet it does for all of 2011 as far as the V8 sales go. I don't give a flip about V6 sales because I know that's the driving force behind the Mustangs sales increase as of right now. I mean when you go from a POS 4.0 to a really good 3.7 then your sales are going to boost for a short time but that will flatten out. Oh and before you bust on me about my information here's a little tip. The Board of Directors has the final say on everything, even if they don't have a clue about cars. The Camaro was discontinued in 2002, that's more than a 5 year absence, and the OHC went into the Mustang in 1996 not 1995. Also if you look back to those days. It took Ford over 3 years to recover GT sales after the 5.0 OHV's discontinuation. Hell, they really only increased because Ford increased production in the late 90's and lowered the price for a short time. Back in 1994 and 1995, Ford could not meet demand on the 5.0 OHV GT Mustang. When my parents finally got the 1995 GT they wanted, they had waited almost a 6 months to get it. Who knows how large sales would've been if Ford had produced enough to meet demand. All I'm saying is that Ford has competition now, and as GM improves the Camaro I believe it will pass the Mustang for now.

FordRacing88
12-27-2010, 11:37 AM
That Bad BIG ASS Camaro LS3 is slower than the 5.0. THAT'S reality. If the Camaro people think they need Summit gear to catch up, they are right. There are other places to shop for speed parts. How many M3 shoppers are there at Summit? How many M3 owners have mullets?

The LS3 Camaro is slower because of not only weight but it's also an older design. GM is already bringing out a new small block for 2012 that's going to blow that 5.0 off the track. Oh and probably at half the cost to do it as well. I also took those sales figures from Ford Racing as a whole. How many real car guys own M3's anyway? Besides I think the last time I saw a bunch of M3 owners they were down at the preppy, snobby, asshole country club that nobody gives a flying crap about.

timmm55
12-27-2010, 01:36 PM
OK, so you love fat cars with old slow engines. With cheap components. The Mustang has already trumped the Camaro TWICE, first with the regular 5.0 and then with BOSS 302......before Chevy even answered with it's SS or whatever.
Do you think Ford is just waiting around? The next Mustang will be even lighter and faster.

The reason Mustang owners aren't buying all that Summit crap is because it's THAT GOOD out of the box, the Camaro needs help for "bragging" (lying!) rights. I'm sure they'll gain 100 HP from new valve covers LOL.

How much would it cost to make an automatic LS3 Camaro beat a Auto/5.0?

FordRacing88
12-27-2010, 01:53 PM
OK, so you love fat cars with old slow engines. With cheap components. The Mustang has already trumped the Camaro TWICE, first with the regular 5.0 and then with BOSS 302......before Chevy even answered with it's SS or whatever.
Do you think Ford is just waiting around? The next Mustang will be even lighter and faster.

I don't exactly call the Mustang slim there man. It may be the lightest of the bunch but it certainly is not what I call a light car. Hahaha slow engines? What's the most successful series of street small blocks currently? Oh once again the GM LS series. Not Ford's modular program. Oh and last I checked, GM didn't have to put blowers on their cars in the late 90's and early 2000's to get decent power out of them. Besides I never said the Camaro was the most luxurious, best handling or looking car on the road. It's just it's going to give the Mustang a run for its money now in the muscle car sector. It aint like the Mustang's interior screams top quality and elegance either. It's a better interior, but not astoundingly good like you try to make it seem. Overall as a whole, the Mustang is probably the better car, but like I said earlier, a lot of guys who are wanting to add aftermarket performance to a muscle car will turn their nose up to the Mustang because of its current engine. Why go buy a car that will cost me over $1200 to put high performance cams on, when I can go buy a good race cam for a OHV for $300? And spend about a half of the time installing it as well. Oh and one more thing, you make it seem like I'm not, but I am FORD fan there man. But that doesn't mean I always agree with everything they do. I thought killing off Mercury without at least trying to save it was stupid too. Oh and I think you mean Chevrolet's Z28, not SS. But the Z28 beat the BOSS 302 in it's first year because Ford put to large of an intake valve on the heads. The BOSS 302 didn't win the championship until 1970, so they were about even on the racetrack in the Trans Am series.

wingsnut
12-27-2010, 02:53 PM
Fordracing88,
there are far, far more performance updates for Ford fans, specifically Mustang fans. That simply can't be debated. LS has been around for a long time, sure. But that is part of it's problem. How about an update. The Ford 5.0 is a newer design, partly due to marketing reasons and the legacy of 5.0L. It seems to hold it's own against the much bigger 6.2L, and manages to get much better fuel economy as well. And what a glorious, high revving sound it makes, especially in the high revving Boss.

We can go tit-for-tat all day with Ford vs Chevy history, but I have no interest.
And month to month sales are about equal with stang leading 4 months out of the year. Camaro had a head start this year, hence the lead for the year. That is just a title. Ford has dominated that title for decades. I see little to move the needle in sales for either in the next 12 months or so, so they should continue to battle month to month.

What can't be argued, is that Mustang has the best all around car, from V6 on up to the Shelby. Again, can't be argued.
And yes I know about the Z coming out in a year. But that is 2012. Just in time for winter.

timmm55
12-27-2010, 07:07 PM
I don't exactly call the Mustang slim there man. It may be the lightest of the bunch but it certainly is not what I call a light car. Hahaha slow engines? What's the most successful series of street small blocks currently? Oh once again the GM LS series. Not Ford's modular program. Oh and last I checked, GM didn't have to put blowers on their cars in the late 90's and early 2000's to get decent power out of them. Besides I never said the Camaro was the most luxurious, best handling or looking car on the road. It's just it's going to give the Mustang a run for its money now in the muscle car sector. It aint like the Mustang's interior screams top quality and elegance either. It's a better interior, but not astoundingly good like you try to make it seem. Overall as a whole, the Mustang is probably the better car, but like I said earlier, a lot of guys who are wanting to add aftermarket performance to a muscle car will turn their nose up to the Mustang because of its current engine. Why go buy a car that will cost me over $1200 to put high performance cams on, when I can go buy a good race cam for a OHV for $300? And spend about a half of the time installing it as well. Oh and one more thing, you make it seem like I'm not, but I am FORD fan there man. But that doesn't mean I always agree with everything they do. I thought killing off Mercury without at least trying to save it was stupid too. Oh and I think you mean Chevrolet's Z28, not SS. But the Z28 beat the BOSS 302 in it's first year because Ford put to large of an intake valve on the heads. The BOSS 302 didn't win the championship until 1970, so they were about even on the racetrack in the Trans Am series.

I've been advocating a smaller, lighter Mustang since 2005. The Camaro is way too big to even be called a "Pony Car". It's a Holden 2 door coupe. How long has the LS3 been around? Can you compare performance parst available for an engine that's been around for years to an engine that's been around for a few MONTHS? That's rediculous.

I din't comment on the superiority of the Mustang interior........too obvious.

"Why go buy a car that will cost me over $1200 to put high performance cams on, when I can go buy a good race cam for a OHV for $300?"..........Ummm because the stock 5.0 will still be faster because it has better valves already?

I wasn't talking about the 68/70 Mustang/Camaro Trans AM cars (the Tunnel Port Ford 302 sucked)........I was talking about the new BOSS 302 with 440 HP. Where's the Camaro answer to that? It's still vaporware.

FordRacing88
12-27-2010, 08:49 PM
Fordracing88,
there are far, far more performance updates for Ford fans, specifically Mustang fans. That simply can't be debated. LS has been around for a long time, sure. But that is part of it's problem. How about an update. The Ford 5.0 is a newer design, partly due to marketing reasons and the legacy of 5.0L. It seems to hold it's own against the much bigger 6.2L, and manages to get much better fuel economy as well. And what a glorious, high revving sound it makes, especially in the high revving Boss.

We can go tit-for-tat all day with Ford vs Chevy history, but I have no interest.
And month to month sales are about equal with stang leading 4 months out of the year. Camaro had a head start this year, hence the lead for the year. That is just a title. Ford has dominated that title for decades. I see little to move the needle in sales for either in the next 12 months or so, so they should continue to battle month to month.

What can't be argued, is that Mustang has the best all around car, from V6 on up to the Shelby. Again, can't be argued.
And yes I know about the Z coming out in a year. But that is 2012. Just in time for winter.

Hey I understand what you're saying, but their are more aftermarket pieces available for GM products than Ford I'm sorry to say. GM dominates local short track and drag racing the U.S. by about 2 to 1 easy. But, like I said the Mustang is a good street vehicle, but they guys who buy American muscle cars to soup them up is still a large market. What I was saying is that a lot of that fan base is turning their nose up at the Mustang GT because they don't like OHC engines. I myself personally am not fan of them either. I was until I began working on them everyday and saw the outrageous costs my cousin went through beefing up his '06 GT. But as far as a street car as a whole, the Mustang is the better car in my mind, but it only takes the sale of one unit to determine a winner and loser in the sales race. Ford could really regain a major foothold in the racers world with a new affordable OHV to run with GM small blocks is all I'm saying, and their is no denying that as well.

FordRacing88
12-27-2010, 09:02 PM
I've been advocating a smaller, lighter Mustang since 2005. The Camaro is way too big to even be called a "Pony Car". It's a Holden 2 door coupe. How long has the LS3 been around? Can you compare performance parst available for an engine that's been around for years to an engine that's been around for a few MONTHS? That's rediculous.

I din't comment on the superiority of the Mustang interior........too obvious.


"Why go buy a car that will cost me over $1200 to put high performance cams on, when I can go buy a good race cam for a OHV for $300?"..........Ummm because the stock 5.0 will still be faster because it has better valves already?

I wasn't talking about the 68/70 Mustang/Camaro Trans AM cars (the Tunnel Port Ford 302 sucked)........I was talking about the new BOSS 302 with 440 HP. Where's the Camaro answer to that? It's still vaporware.

I'm not comparing the amount of parts so much as to the amount of popularity as a whole. GM small blocks dominate local short track racing and drag racing (as far as how any people run them), there is no denying that. So as far as the performance guys go the Chevy small block is there engine of choice and some of that choice is based off the fact it's an OHV compared with an OHC is what I'm saying. I don't understand your valves comment though. A performance cam, or any cam change, has nothing to do with the valve design or structure. What do you mean? A cam change would be used to change the duration of the valves, basically to move the power and torque bands to different RPMs, nothing more. If I would want better valves then you get a valve job or a cylinder head upgrade. But there again changing out 16 stock valves to high performance is a hell of a lot cheaper than 32, so there again COSTS. Oh and my mistake, when you mentioned the BOSS 302 I thought you meant the original, but yes the new BOSS 302 is a badass car. But the problem I have with that again is the cost. That new BOSS 302 I believe is over $45K! Hell it'd be smarter to buy the GT and slowly bump it up to run with the new BOSS if you ask me. You're are right though, it will interesting to see what Chevrolet does in response to the BOSS. It will just be plain interesting to see what changes are in store for the Camaro down the road. I mean the 2005 Mustang was pretty much all new as well, like the Camaro is, and it wasn't all that great either. Still, if I was looking for a regular street performance car, I'd buy a Mustang. If I was looking for a modern street car to soup up, I'd probably buy a Camaro or Challenger, or even an older Mustang, before I got the new one mainly for costs, labor, and just overall simplicity.

timmm55
12-28-2010, 04:27 PM
Like I said the Mustang sales are lower as far as the GT and V8 Camaro go because of that boat anchor 5.0.



Oh and one more thing, you make it seem like I'm not, but I am FORD fan there man. Ford guy, huh? Look i understand you make your living at Summit. You probably see 10:1 Chevy people buying stuff from you. It's your livelyhood. But that's who JEGS and Summit cater to.

http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.php?make1=15&model1=270&op1=%3D&year1=2011&make2=8&model2=150&op2=%3D&year2=2011&make3=-1&op3=%3D&year3=0&make4=-1&op4=%3D&year4=0&submitButtonName=Compare%21

2011 Mustang vs Camaro match up. First two quickest are 5.0s modified (tunes/exhaust.....NO nitros). Note that the Camaro has a Supercharger, the next quickest is a STOCK Mustang GT automatic.

NA 5.0 GT in the 10s:
http://www.youtube.com/user/evoperform#p/u/4/gwJsmTVN9vY

NA 5.0 GT AUTOMATIC on street tires:
Modification List
- C&L Cold Air Intake System
- Evolution Performance, Inc. True Custom 93 Octane Tune
- American Racing 1 7/8 Longtube Headers with 3" Collector and Catted X-Pipe
- Magnaflow Competition Series 3" Catback Exhaust System
- Ford Racing 4.10 Gears
- Steeda Ultralite Lowering Springs
- Evolution Performance, Inc. Adjustable Panhard Bar

http://www.youtube.com/user/evoperform#p/u/11/hy2RQXtwyqw

3Mach1
12-29-2010, 02:38 AM
These debates will go till the end of time. Its good for both brands. I love the new 5 liter. This is not 1969 anymore. Gm knows the next Camaro needs to lose weight. Even the Gm faithful have screamed bloody murder at them. I could not be less excited about the Z28. Its going to weight a ton. Just get a base Vette and be done with it. Im a big Mustang fan but never got caught up in the Gt500 hooplah either. The Boss is a different story and the General has no answer for that period.

I have seen these arguments go on for years. Here is the bottom line. He with the biggest check book goes the fastest.

SobeSVT
12-29-2010, 05:11 AM
These debates will go till the end of time. Its good for both brands. I love the new 5 liter. This is not 1969 anymore. Gm knows the next Camaro needs to lose weight. Even the Gm faithful have screamed bloody murder at them. I could not be less excited about the Z28. Its going to weight a ton. Just get a base Vette and be done with it. Im a big Mustang fan but never got caught up in the Gt500 hooplah either. The Boss is a different story and the General has no answer for that period.

I have seen these arguments go on for years. Here is the bottom line. He with the biggest check book goes the fastest.
I couldn't agree with you more . . . except for the very last part. GM has the fattest check book and the Camaro sure is the slowest . . . :)

I'm not comparing the amount of parts so much as to the amount of popularity as a whole. GM small blocks dominate local short track racing and drag racing (as far as how any people run them), there is no denying that. So as far as the performance guys go the Chevy small block is there engine of choice and some of that choice is based off the fact it's an OHV compared with an OHC is what I'm saying.
I am not going to dispute that the GM small block is more popular in the "in-home improvements" scene . . . I am really not familiar with it, so I have no idea if you are right or wrong. What I am not concede simply because it is not true is the fact that such popularity is the decisive factor in the final sales tally. That is just ridiculous, that scene is not big at all.

I see natural though that the easier engine to work in would be the most popular . . . that doesn't mean it is the better engine. Like 3Mach1 said, "this is not 1969 anymore".

Logans Run
12-29-2010, 05:21 AM
The Camaro did have a lot of pent up demand, and that is waning a bit, but it still sells well because it stands out in the parking lot much more than the Mustang does. I am not saying that the Mustang is not a cool looking ride, but the overall shape and look has been around for a good while, and people are used to seeing it everywhere. Purchasing a new Mustang looses that powerful "look at me" experience when there are already 3 in the neighborhood.

SobeSVT
12-29-2010, 06:27 AM
The Camaro did have a lot of pent up demand, and that is waning a bit, but it still sells well because it stands out in the parking lot much more than the Mustang does. I am not saying that the Mustang is not a cool looking ride, but the overall shape and look has been around for a good while, and people are used to seeing it everywhere. Purchasing a new Mustang looses that powerful "look at me" experience when there are already 3 in the neighborhood.
I agree with you on this one, I also believe that the WOW factor will play its role less and less.

FordRacing88
12-29-2010, 07:12 PM
[QUOTE=timmm55;40010]Ford guy, huh? Look i understand you make your living at Summit. You probably see 10:1 Chevy people buying stuff from you. It's your livelyhood. But that's who JEGS and Summit cater to.

http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.php?make1=15&model1=270&op1=%3D&year1=2011&make2=8&model2=150&op2=%3D&year2=2011&make3=-1&op3=%3D&year3=0&make4=-1&op4=%3D&year4=0&submitButtonName=Compare%21

2011 Mustang vs Camaro match up. First two quickest are 5.0s modified (tunes/exhaust.....NO nitros). Note that the Camaro has a Supercharger, the next quickest is a STOCK Mustang GT automatic.

NA 5.0 GT in the 10s:
http://www.youtube.com/user/evoperform#p/u/4/gwJsmTVN9vY

NA 5.0 GT AUTOMATIC on street tires:
Modification List
- C&L Cold Air Intake System
- Evolution Performance, Inc. True Custom 93 Octane Tune
- American Racing 1 7/8 Longtube Headers with 3" Collector and Catted X-Pipe
- Magnaflow Competition Series 3" Catback Exhaust System
- Ford Racing 4.10 Gears
- Steeda Ultralite Lowering Springs
- Evolution Performance, Inc. Adjustable Panhard Bar

http://www.youtube.com/user/evoperform#p/u/11/hy2RQXtwyqw[/QUOT

Yeah those times are nice, but I'm still not sold. Besides I've admitted that Chevy did make the Camaro a boat, but hey the 2005 Mustang wasn't a great new car either. Ford's had a lot more time to tune on the current Mustang chassis. Even with those better times, it would still be cheaper to beef up that LS3 than to beef up the new 5.0 and thats what I care about. I'm a performance guy so I personally don't really give a damn about factory specs. I mean they're great and all, but what I want to know when I'm buying a muscle car is how solid is the car, what the regular maintenance costs are (because I work on most of my own stuff), and the cost/labor to add after market pieces to it. Hands down an OHC cannot run with an OHV in terms of cost to upgrade on a similar power level, their is no denying that and that's my biggest reason for not liking the 5.0. Oh and trust me I do get tired of all the GM fanatics I see everyday, I really do. I'm a big Ford fan, never owned anything else, but like I've said in other posts that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. But it is just my opinion and I'm just saying I do know I'm not alone.

FordRacing88
12-29-2010, 07:14 PM
These debates will go till the end of time. Its good for both brands. I love the new 5 liter. This is not 1969 anymore. Gm knows the next Camaro needs to lose weight. Even the Gm faithful have screamed bloody murder at them. I could not be less excited about the Z28. Its going to weight a ton. Just get a base Vette and be done with it. Im a big Mustang fan but never got caught up in the Gt500 hooplah either. The Boss is a different story and the General has no answer for that period.

I have seen these arguments go on for years. Here is the bottom line. He with the biggest check book goes the fastest.

No arguing that. Money buys speed you're absolutely right there.

FordRacing88
12-29-2010, 07:20 PM
I couldn't agree with you more . . . except for the very last part. GM has the fattest check book and the Camaro sure is the slowest . . . :)

I am not going to dispute that the GM small block is more popular in the "in-home improvements" scene . . . I am really not familiar with it, so I have no idea if you are right or wrong. What I am not concede simply because it is not true is the fact that such popularity is the decisive factor in the final sales tally. That is just ridiculous, that scene is not big at all.

I see natural though that the easier engine to work in would be the most popular . . . that doesn't mean it is the better engine. Like 3Mach1 said, "this is not 1969 anymore".

You're right there, the performance guys as a whole probably wouldn't make the difference in the sales tally at the end of the year. But you have to remember a lot of that has to do with the fact that V6's dominate the sales now. I was just simply saying that Ford could really grab a good chunk of the market away from GM if they introduced a new affordable OHV engine, but you're right it's not 1969 anymore. But sometimes simpler is better in quite a few ways. Like the old saying, less is more sometimes. But it's all opinion and my opinions don't favor the 5.0 or any OHC V8 and I'll stand by them. The argument can go forever. For every one reason an OHC is better than an OHV, I can give you a reason why the OHV is better than the OHC and so on.....

wingsnut
12-30-2010, 04:38 AM
I would say Ford tuned the stang just right. They managed to hide the solid axle pretty good, to where you barely remember it is there, until the road turns real rough -- and even then, it handles it impressively.

And 1/4 mile times are just one thing.
0-60 is far more useful day to day, and the mustang manages to beat everyone else in this category. In fact, few ever take their cars to a track, let alone reach 1/4 mile speeds to care.
Also to is skid pad numbers, and mustang blows past the IRS camaro here as well.
Let's not forget the one area where you spend ALL your time, the interior. Ford wins here easily.
And finally, the stang manages the best fuel economy by far.

And let's be honest. How much originality is there in ANY camaro or mustang??
Most who buy, buy the legends and the value for what they are.

igotzzoom
01-06-2011, 12:27 PM
The GM small-block has been more popular than the Windsor or Cleveland, or Modular. This is not a new development. It's been this way for decades.

Go to a classic street-rod show. The majority of cars are Fords...with Chevy engines. The new 5.0 DOHC is a great engine, but admittedly, a lot tougher to tune or modify for the shade-tree hot rodder.

Valvetrain aside, I assure you there will be some tuning headaches with the new direct-injected smallblock. They will be overcome in time, but I remember when the LS1 first came out, the purists were declaring the end of hot-rodding as we know it. Nothing could have been further from the truth. The LS-based engines are just as popular to hot-rod as the older smallblocks.

For those that want a capable performer out-of-the-box, and don't intend on going much further than an intake, exhaust, programmer, and maybe a supercharger, the 5.0 Mustang is a great option. For those guys that really want to get their fingernails greasy, and fool around with rockers, cams, heads, etc., the GM smallblock will continue to dominate the hot-rodder market.

timmm55
01-06-2011, 04:00 PM
[QUOTE=Timmi;40010]Ford guy, huh? Look i understand you make your living at Summit. You probably see 10:1 Chevy people buying stuff from you. It's your livelihood. But that's who JEGS and Summit cater to.

http://www.dragtimes.com/compare2.php?make1=15&model1=270&op1=%3D&year1=2011&make2=8&model2=150&op2=%3D&year2=2011&make3=-1&op3=%3D&year3=0&make4=-1&op4=%3D&year4=0&submitButtonName=Compare%21

2011 Mustang vs Camaro match up. First two quickest are 5.0s modified (tunes/exhaust.....NO nitros). Note that the Camaro has a Supercharger, the next quickest is a STOCK Mustang GT automatic.

NA 5.0 GT in the S:
http://www.youtube.com/user/evoperform#p/u/4/gwJsmTVN9vY

NA 5.0 GT AUTOMATIC on street tires:
Modification List
- C&L Cold Air Intake System
- Evolution Performance, Inc. True Custom 93 Octane Tune
- American Racing 1 7/8 Long tube Headers with 3" Collector and Catted X-Pipe
- Magnolia Competition Series 3" Cutback Exhaust System
- Ford Racing 4.10 Gears
- Steed Ultra lite Lowering Springs
- Evolution Performance, Inc. Adjustable Pan hard Bar

http://www.youtube.com/user/evoperform#p/u/11/hy2RQXtwyqw[/QUOT

Yeah those times are nice, but I'm still not sold. Besides I've admitted that Chevy did make the Camaro a boat, but hey the 2005 Mustang wasn't a great new car either. Ford's had a lot more time to tune on the current Mustang chassis. Even with those better times, it would still be cheaper to beef up that LS3 than to beef up the new 5.0 and thats what I care about. I'm a performance guy so I personally don't really give a damn about factory specs. I mean they're great and all, but what I want to know when I'm buying a muscle car is how solid is the car, what the regular maintenance costs are (because I work on most of my own stuff), and the cost/labor to add after market pieces to it. Hands down an HOC cannot run with an HOV in terms of cost to upgrade on a similar power level, their is no denying that and that's my biggest reason for not liking the 5.0. Oh and trust me I do get tired of all the GM fanatics I see everyday, I really do. I'm a big Ford fan, never owned anything else, but like I've said in other posts that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. But it is just my opinion and I'm just saying I do know I'm not alone.

The reason I posted those was in 1) in response to the 5.0 "boat anchor" comment and 2) that the 4.6 has to be blown to keep up with a new V8 Camaro. Well, now it's 2011 and the role is reversed. 5.0 with a chip and couple of mods will beat a blown (supercharged or turbo) V8 Camaro. Now that is FRI KEN amazing!

I was at the SD Auto Show last week and tried out a new Camaro and a Mustang, both V6s. (Personally I think the Vs are the real "BANG FOR THE BUCK" here as the Mustang is as fast as my 05 GT, gets 31 MPG and is less $$$$.) I would NEVER denigrate anyone for buying a new Camaro.......it's their choice after all and it's a very nice car. I'll give the Camaro two areas where it succeeds 1) sound, the V6 sounded great. 2) Styling (not function) from the front it is very true to the show car, it LOOKS like a SHOW CAR, even with the V6.

Negatives: HORRIBLE interior, cheap materials. The dash would be OK in a retro HHR with the 50s style inspired radio. I could do a paragraph on the cheap radio alone. Vision is poor. I wasn't claustrophobic only because it had a sunroof. 3/4 rear styling is FAT, not in a good way either.

Where the Mustang succeeds is everything else: size, weight, ride, performance, comfort, build quality, ergonomics, etc. etc.

Negatives: rear styling is "lumpy" with too much going on. The roof is too 05. I know the top hat couldn't be changed much, but nothing?

wingsnut
01-07-2011, 03:26 AM
The new 5.0L is NOT DI.

And they tune it nicely above 440 hp in the Boss as well, with minor bolt ons.

igotzzoom
01-07-2011, 09:23 AM
The new 5.0L is NOT DI.

And they tune it nicely above 440 hp in the Boss as well, with minor bolt ons.

My reference to DI was for the next-gen GM smallblocks. Although I'm sure sooner or later, the 5.0 will get DI as well.