Re: Motor Trends car of the year is the camaro for 2016
I don't know who the voice of doom troll is but I do know this pony car class really is offering some of the most impressive machines....
707 hp hellcat
526 hp gt350 with an 8250 redline
And the camaro SS with 455 hp and a smaller and lighter better handling chassis than previous generations
I don't know who the voice of doom troll is but I do know this pony car class really is offering some of the most impressive machines....
707 hp hellcat
526 hp gt350 with an 8250 redline
And the camaro SS with 455 hp and a smaller and lighter better handling chassis than previous generations
Re: Motor Trends car of the year is the camaro for 2016
We all should congratulate GM on yet another world-class performance car, Detroit is doing amazing things now and GM is very much at the center of that.
Re: Motor Trends car of the year is the camaro for 2016
GM has an upper hand (currently) in the depth of performance of one or two segments.
Ford clearly has the breadth covered (or at least, very soon) with AWD hot hatches, offroad performance, rear engine carbon fiber sports cars, and their GT350 appears to be quite the performance champ as well. And they are about half way there with their TOTAL performance goals.
I congratulate both, and although GM may be at the center, it is Ford who is covering the whole infield.
MVP award (Most Vehicular Performance) goes to Ford.
Re: Motor Trends car of the year is the camaro for 2016
There's a significant difference between GM's plans using Alpha for Cadillac and then developing a Camaro from it.
GM clearly spend more funding and resource on developing a premium platform and those cars but that also
pushes up the need for increased sales and higher transaction prices to get a decent ROI.
The Mustang is a much simpler strategy, take the previous car as a start point and move things around until it's better,
add a similar IRS as found on the CD4s like Fusion and Chinese Taurus and Voila, one fantastic Coupe.
Even though the changes were massive, it's still only a fraction of the cost of a clean sheet bespoke platform.
At 8,000-10,000 sales a month in the US plus Canada plus global exports, I doubt Ford is too worried at all,
while the plant is on two shifts..October saw 15,568 Mustangs produced while the YTD total is 137,159.
When you're in the running to be the largest automaker in the world you have platforms for segments smaller automakers ignore (ie. the aforementioned Y-body, also known as the Corvette). I'll even spot you the Omega, which you probably held off on, for similar reasons.
On a related note, there's also the matter of putting your best stuff in your latest and greatest platform, which is the raison d'être for Alpha. RWD platform with AWD capability that trumps the Germans? Across multiple brands and segments? Sweet.
Or, you can go with Brand X... "We just tacked a Jaguar fascia on our two year-old near-Lux sedan that's based on our grocery-getter!"
When you're in the running to be the largest automaker in the world you have platforms for segments smaller automakers ignore (ie. the aforementioned Y-body, also known as the Corvette). I'll even spot you the Omega, which you probably held off on, for similar reasons.
1: Corvette is outclassed by Ford GT. Sure we haven't seen the production model run, but you can still eat its dust VD, I guarantee it. That is if the Vette can make it a lap without overheating or blowing an engine.
2: Oh the automaker in the running to be the world's largest automaker who did a great job turning profits this year, CRUSHING the "smaller automakers" right? RIGHT? What a joke!
GM - 2015 After Tax Profit
Q1......$945 Million
Q2....,,.$1.1 Billion
Q3.......$1.4 Billion
Ford - 2015 After Tax Profit
Q1......$924 Million
Q2....,,.$1.9 Billion
Q3.......$1.9 Billion
OHHH right Ford is so puny!
Oh,
Q3 Revenue
GM .....$38.8 Billion
Ford ...$38.1 Billion
LESS REVENUE [barely] BUT MORE PROFIT => SMARTER BUSINESS. Quit your crying.
Hey doom, how is that 'German crushing' ATS vehicle doing by the way?
Sales wise that is, as we already know it to be a horribly confining little excuse for a luxury car.
Clearly it's doing well enough that you saw fit to mention it in a previous post, while ignoring its larger brother completely. Then again, that post was all about sales I believe, which in the context of the Camaro's platform is probably not a good place for you to go.
Having said that (and acknowledging that is the excellence of Alpha which nabs the Camaro this award), I'll attempt to return this more closely to the topic at hand:
Wow. What a machine. The '16 Camaro really is the standard of the class.
-I'm fending off a horde of pitchfork-wielding Ford fans for having the nerve to suggest that a modern, world-class unibody is a good thing to use in a ponycar.
-I'm replying to posts about Cadillac sales and Global Rangers in a thread supposedly about the '16 Camaro winning MT's Car of the Year award.
...alrighty then. So here's my (much more relevant) retort:
Anyone reading the reports around these two cars during their development had to know that this result was pretty much inevitable. The Camaro is the ponycar rolling on Cadillac bones with a Corvette heart. The Mustang was handicapped by the twin shackles of One Ford and EcoBoost: it's platform was developed to a stricter price point, and it's V8s do not have the economics of scale benefits they would have if their top brass wasn't so fixated on boosted V6 engines. The test results are as much a result of Mullaly and Fields as they are of the car itself.
Oh get off your high horse! You are nearly always the one to make these threads about Ford. How are you dense enough to not expect people replying passionately to your rhetoric on a Ford fan site? Admittedly this time you were called out before even entering the thread, and I don't think that was the right thing for anyone to do, but you reap what you sow, and your usual cascade of pedestal-residing nonsensical crap can get nothing short of childish. Don't like this place? You're a simple "Log Out" away, my friend. You can continue to come here only when good things come to General Motors. Your posting inconsistency and confinement to the "General Motors Discussion" section prove your comments to be nothing more than trolling. And you are very good that.
"I'm nearly always the one to make these threads about Ford?"
Really?
If you go back over my limited posting history here, I'm pretty sure that you will find that my topics are pretty much limited to two things:
-GM products (usually the enthusiast stuff, so Ford is usually mentioned by default),
-What to do with Lincoln (I along with many others argued for massive investment and bespoke product, the resident Dearborn employee ridiculed us. Then D6 was announced, the battle was won, and laughter ensued).
So, yes. I confine my posting to a section of the forum dedicated to GM. If you're so childish that you cannot accept posts in that section that (gasp!) support GM?... well, wow.
If you cannot handle the fact that the Camaro is better than the current Mustang (and it is), then perhaps a better target of your wrath would be the company that makes the Mustang. It accomplishes little to stomp your feet and say "I hate GM!" while they just keep on trucking.
I have expressed my support for the Camaro time and time again and have readily admitted that this year the Camaro is a better performance car. I also support GM in general because I like my American brands. I also understand you're a GM fan exclusively and stay there because you have a one track, closed mind. However, I have accepted that you are a parasite. I never direct "wrath" at anything other than a problem. And you, sir, create problems and are a negative and caustic individual. Peace out.
Also don't get into company ethics with me because GM has NO leg to stand on there, what with how many dead due to GMs lies?
Whatever. I wandered in here, posted stuff that was actually relevant to the thread after reading a bunch of rather lame whining from a few folks, and got pillored for it.
Cause, effect, corporate culture... call it what you will. What you can't call it is effective. It isn't. And in this case, there's a distinct possibility it comes from the top, and was seen as a desirable thing when the New Boss was making his climb to the top.
Such a corporate culture is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You're right, what a failure at over 10k units per month and overwhelmingly positive press. What did the new Mustang just lose by in MTs comparo? Wasn't it like 5 points or so? Are you finished? I am.
Right now I have a hard time imagining Camaro outselling Mustang annually, pretty sure that ship has sailed and Mustang is back on top for good. The new Camaro is only slightly better than Mustang but is a less usable or stylish car. Besides, an updated Mustang is only a year away.
I think the quote below from the 2016 Camaro SS First Drive makes your point as it relates to it being 'less usable' or less practical as a daily driver. Simple things like being able to take two co-workers to lunch or not really being able to 'comfortably' transport other adults is a big deal for such a big coupe. The poor outward visibility(back and side) will definitely impact female sales and those not willing to pay more for more compensating tech.
"Materials have improved across the board but, as mentioned before, visibility and space are still lacking in the 2016 Camaro. In fact, we'd say that visibility is actual worse in the new model. If you're thinking about buying any 2016 Camaro, be prepared to spring for blind spot warning and rear traffic detection systems; they're truly must-haves. But the view inside has improved thanks to LED mood lighting used throughout the cabin.
The Camaro's rear seats are virtually useless for normal-sized adults, but that's OK because there is only space for two suitcases in the trunk.
With a cramped interior, small trunk and poor outward visibility, the 2016 Camaro SS isn't for everyone. But that lack of sensibility is precisely why we like the Camaro so much.
And then there is this comment from a blogger on their site:
""The more we drove the new Camaro SS, the less we seemed to care about things like outward visibility ..."
Yeah, I get how someone could conclude that in a 3 hour test drive or cruising empty Montana highways or if they want a track vehicle. My brother bought his SS under the same delusion, and a year later hated the fact that visibility was pure ****. Fun to drive, yes, but not on a daily or regular basis in the real world.
So, I did indeed look up the C&D test. The score was 205 to 207, with the 1/4 mi time making up 3 points difference. R&T timed the manual SS at 0-60, 4.2sec, 12.5/113 in the qtr. The long term Mustang C&D just posted had an initial test of 0-60, 4.3sec, 12.9/112 in the qtr. The automatic SS C&D tested ran 0-60, 3.9 sec, 12.3/116 in the qtr. Pretty clear to see if C&D had run the manual SS against the manual GT their times would have been close to indistinguishable. The SS probably would have won that category 20 to 19, which are the two points I spoke of.
Essentially, a dead heat as I said. So, really, I know the Camaro is all brand new with a bunch more power and lighter weight, but unless you kill the fun by getting the auto, you don't get anything over the GT.
Not much of a performance car win when you "wanted it" as badly as GM supposedly did. LOL.
...also, I just checked into GMI. There's no butthurt over the Head2Head. The consensus was that it would have been a disaster for Ford if the Camaro had actually won (it IS out of production now, after all), and GM is not lacking for options when it retaliates.
hey moose, did doom really just accuse me of being you?
LOL
And I don't know about all this drama he speaks of in another site, but i did quote moose's remarks in another site, indeed I did. Any manufactured drama henceforth, was one sided. Trust me.
We do remember that the VW Golf was their Car of the Year for 2015.
This point to why the idea of a 'car of the year' mixing all segments and vehicle types to select a 'best' does not work. They might as well gather all vehicles that were voted in, put the names in a hat and pick one. Because the odds of the outcome would be about the same. Comparing a Honda Fit with a C-Class is nonsense.
Which is why vehicles of each class don't compete with other classes in the real world. Comparisons based on class/segment is the only criterion that makes sense.
For 2016 the Camaro, as good as it is, was compared, among other vehicles, with the Toyota Mira, BMA 7-Series and Honda Civic. This comparison makes no sense and any performance aspects of the Camaro pony car will be exaggerated by the lack of 'raw' performance of the Mira, Civic and even the full size luxury sedan....7-Series.
The reality is that no matter what vehicle the magazine decides to give an award to of the year, it really has little to do with how it stacks up against it's actual competition it was 'designed' to compete with in the marketplace.
When the only award that matters is the one voted on by consumers who actually buy the car, and that would be the Worlds Best Selling Sports Car - Mustang!
The power, handling, comfort, technology and price range the Mustang offers has a much wider reach than any other sports car available globally. And Ford keeps cranking up the power and handling one new model after another with so much more room to go with next gen EcoBoost technology.
Consumers will ALWAYS make the final decision about what is the best with their dollars. With Mustang at over 106k sales YTD as of Oct, up 65% YTD(up 121% for Oct), vs Camaro at 66k YTD, down 11%, I don't see Mustang sales momentum slowing down anytime soon, but Camaro sales may level off and get out of the red with this 'new' model.
Why the need to explain away any success/achievement by the Camaro? It gets embarrassing the lengths this board will go to dismiss the Camaro, are we losing sleep over this?
I'm impressed as **** with what GM managed to do with the new Camaro and give them all the credit in the world! That said if I were in the market for this type of car the difference in performance would not be enough to overcome my preference for the Mustang and that is what I'd buy, and I wouldn't be butt hurt about it.
sp,
there is plenty of good discussion on this board that focuses on the many aspects of competitive product, and on both sides, not just Ford trumpeting theirs. And sure, there is a bit of smack talk going on as well, for which I am also guilty, and we can give as well as we get. But considering what I see in other forums, we are downright Catholic School clergy relative to those. So I would not be too ashamed of your fellow FIN members here, as things are topical and orderly and interesting.
What I find so amusing about VoD's crowing about GM wanting it more is how cynically marketing based they go about trying. What car do they want everyone testing? The auto, because it puts out faster numbers for the magazines, even though we know through the Z06 Motor Trend GT-R test debacle that the auto is slower around a track (which in itself tells you all you need to know about GM's willingness to tweak their cars to get better mag results, though the customer will doubtfully ever see them).
Also, it is in areas like this:
...9 cu ft of trunk space. Pony cars aren't FR-Ss, they're supposed to give you more. Who would want that as a daily driver? Do they go to the grocery store?
..yeah, I mean, sure, it's only 50% bigger. Or, to put it another way, the Camaro's trunk is 1/3 smaller. 33% smaller sounds better than the Mustang's being 50% bigger, so we'll put it that way.
That's a pretty hefty difference considering the cars as tested were less than 60lbs apart. And, they're pretty close in other regards to size, almost identical really, so why the silly small trunk?
Just goofy.
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Ford Inside News
156.3K posts
16.3K members
Since 2007
A forum community dedicated to all Ford owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about reviews, news, concepts, industry trends, classifieds, maintenance, and more for all Mazda, Lincoln, Mercury, Mustang, Ford models!