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"Teslas are .... "

73K views 396 replies 23 participants last post by  mooseman 
#1 ·
#239 ·
#246 ·
For those that think the Tesla model 3 is a BMW 3-Series competitor... look at thse interiors.... Really??


https://images.carscoops.com/2018/10/7a1f25e0-2019-bmw-3-series-unveiled-paris-33.jpg[/IMG


[IMG]https://images.carscoops.com/2018/10/b0560ed2-2019-bmw-3-series-unveiled-paris-20.jpg
WOW....look how old-school the 'new' 3-Series looks compared with the Model 3. Here is the 2019 Model 3 for a better comparison. Clearly you can see which is the past, and which is the future of the performance sedan. Maybe the sales numbers will help, Model 3 outsold 3 and 4-series combined again by over 300% for September. There is just no comparison....the consumer has spoken.

 
#243 ·
Is this thread stuck or something? Keeps saying there's new posts but nothing new when I open it.
 
#245 ·
"Tesla produced 80,142 vehicles in Q3, up 50% vs. Q2, including 53,239 Model 3 sedans. Those were mostly in line with company and analyst estimates. Q3 deliveries totaled 83,500 vehicles: 55,840 Model 3, 14,470 Model S and 13,190 Model X.

Tesla stock slid 3.1% to 301.02 Tuesday."
https://www.investors.com/news/auto-sales-ford-fiat-gm-tesla/

Sales up 50% from one quarter to the next. Tesla should again outsell BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus and every other luxury/premium brand in NA. And this is with vehicles at minimum $60k+. Tesla sold more $60k+ Model 3 sedans than twice the total Lincoln sales. With more than 300k more orders still in the backlog. Makes one wonder if Lincoln should be making a midsize luxury performance sedan EV to compete.

What was telling was the Paris Auto Show where the new 2019 BMW ICE 3-Series made it's debut, with the Model 3 at the Tesla stand pulling the majority of the attention, and it was media/press day, wondering where the 3-Series EV was. Model 3 is going to Europe in 2019.

Checking BMW Sept sales, Model 3 at over 22k sales, outsold 3/4-series at about 7k by over 300%!!

The future of the sedan/fastback is ELECTRIC! Trying to push EV SUVs on the public will be a very low volume proposition. The volume that can bring profitability is the sedan that benefits from ALL of the benefits of going EV. The performance 'rush' you get form driving an EV is diminished dramatically with the hight and extra girth and weight of an suv or tall wagon.

Investors selling after the stock surge on Friday, getting ready to buy again before/during the 3rd quarter financial announcement hopefully tomorrow...so get ready for another stock surge.
 
#248 · (Edited)
About that "Road and Track" track test, you forget to mention that after a few laps on track, the power of the Model 3 go down because the entire powerplant gain heat, and make impossible to continue racing. Say this to a Mustang owner or a M3 owner and he laughs to laughter.


Here the part of the review you missed:


"So, having plugged in overnight and immediately hit the track with a full 310 miles of range, we could have run just over 30 full-speed laps before needing to unspool the extension cord. Right?Not exactly. Heat buildup is inevitable. After three or four laps at absolute tire-torturing full speed, the car begins to reduce power output. It's a balanced, gradual event. The motors and battery use cooling circuits that are independent but linked; as one component heats up, the system shifts cooling capacity where it's needed. It can even use the battery as a heat sink to shed excess thermal load from the motors.
This linked approach to thermal management means that, unlike previous Teslas, track driving won't lead to a total performance shutdown when one component's temperature spikes. Battery and motors heat up at the same rate; when the car starts approaching its thermal limits, it dials back power gradually, until the heat output can be managed by the car's cooling capability"





Is completly useless to try to argue with you, Bloggin. If at some point Tesla manages to sell more units of the model 3 than what Ford of the Transit sells, you will say that the Tesla model 3 competes with the Transit! Good luck with your fanaticism for Tesla. I give up...




:x
 
#250 ·
About that "Road and Track" track test, you forget to mention that after a few laps on track, the power of the Model 3 go down because the entire powerplant gain heat, and make impossible to continue racing. Say this to a Mustang owner or a M3 owner and he laughs to laughter.


Here the part of the review you missed:


"So, having plugged in overnight and immediately hit the track with a full 310 miles of range, we could have run just over 30 full-speed laps before needing to unspool the extension cord. Right?Not exactly. Heat buildup is inevitable. After three or four laps at absolute tire-torturing full speed, the car begins to reduce power output. It's a balanced, gradual event. The motors and battery use cooling circuits that are independent but linked; as one component heats up, the system shifts cooling capacity where it's needed. It can even use the battery as a heat sink to shed excess thermal load from the motors.
This linked approach to thermal management means that, unlike previous Teslas, track driving won't lead to a total performance shutdown when one component's temperature spikes. Battery and motors heat up at the same rate; when the car starts approaching its thermal limits, it dials back power gradually, until the heat output can be managed by the car's cooling capability"

Is completly useless to try to argue with you, Bloggin. If at some point Tesla manages to sell more units of the model 3 than what Ford of the Transit sells, you will say that the Tesla model 3 competes with the Transit! Good luck with your fanaticism for Tesla. I give up...

:x
Ok you win. The BMW or Mustang is better at driving around circles for long periods of time...... for now. FormulaE has resolved that issue with next gen battery packs, but those are too expensive for entry consumer use today.

But yes, the Model 3 was designed to compete directly with the 3-Series, C-Class, and A4 as we can see by Tesla's charts tracking it's competition. When comparing Model 3 sales or Tesla sales to the general automotive population, it's all about comparing sales 'volume' of EVs vs ICE, no matter what segment. Also, did you know that Civics and Corollas are high on the list of vehicles being traded in on the Model 3. Which makes the fact that the Model 3 outsold the Corolla and Civic sales are pulled down in September significant. Prius models are also high on the trade in list for Model 3. This was surprising to many because of the false perception that all people buy a compact/commuter car because they can't afford something a more expensive vehicle.
 
#252 ·
Maybe not so much. Their first was not to begin production until late 2019, so we are looking a just a few months difference possibly. But their first, the ID which is essentially a next gen Golf EV should do well in Europe if the price is on par with the Golf. But waiting to see what Audi offers, unless it's another hatchback for the European market. VW already knows, China want's a sedan or 5-door fastback.
 
#259 ·
We really have to look beyond the headlines or what the media tells us to get to the facts.

NHTSA already explained that they don't offer a rating above 5 stars because that's how they report the rankings. However, looking at the actual data, each category of crashworthiness that NHTSA uses for the ranking has it's one score. It is in each and every category of tested crash worthiness where Tesla models ranked lower risk than all other models. This is why initially Tesla announced more than 5 stars for the Model s, and NHTSA had to revise their scores with a limit not to exceed a 5 star. But the actual score for Model S still is above 5. Model X was right below the S, and now the Model 3 is above the scores of the S. All well ahead of any other vehicle model tested to date.

Understanding just basic physics, that big engine and all its components in front of the driver, that gets pushed into the driver in a crash is a big part of why ICE vehicles or vehicles will always be less safe than a Tesla EV. But then Teslas are built safer all around, top and bottom than an ICE are manufactured.

So yes Model 3 is #1, followed by Model S at #2 and Model X at #3. Tesla is so far ahead of the ICE manufacturers, that they really have no competition on many levels.
 
#261 ·
With sales directly from the manufacturer, customers can order directly from the show and have cars delivered to their homes/offices. Order banks are still at over 400k and growing with China production kicking off late next year.

“From the China Tesla Club and Chinese Auto reporter (Sun Shao Jun), the booth that has the most customers in Guangzhou car show GIAE this year is Tesla, which has been extremely busy from the beginning of the day to the end, everyday. Many customers are placing orders at the show.”

https://insideevs.com/tesla-booth-flooded-model-3-buyers-china/
 
#263 · (Edited)
Market cap:

VW - $72.72 billion
Tesla – $63.18 billion
Daimler – $61.27 billion
GM - $51.54 billion
BMW - $48.37 billion
Ford - $36.52 billion

The most important factor that influences share value is the belief of the future outcome. Tesla, as a technological company and biggest manufacturer of all-electric cars, is expected to grow strong in the future, which pulls the market value up.

https://insideevs.com/tesla-market-cap-surpasses-daimler/
 
#265 ·
Wired Magazine, a long-time Silicon Valley booster, does good reporting on a lot of issues. Here, they direct their spotlight on Tesla.

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-elon-musk-very-good-year-model-3/?CNDID=24800605&CNDID=24800605&bxid=MjM5Njc3NTQyMDE3S0&hasha=1baae597e816c11d7be5a577e7b685ee&hashb=b9eea3e6ad03b51a85326819884fe355460c217a&mbid=nl_122418_daily_list3_p1&utm_brand=wired&utm_mailing=WIRED%20NL%20122418%20(1)&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl

An interesting quote comes from Kelley Blue Book analyst, Tim Fleming. “It will be the top-selling luxury vehicle this year,” Fleming says.

Jack Stewart, the Wired columnist continues: "That's against all luxury vehicles, crazy popular SUVs included. The next best-selling car, the Mercedes C-Class, comes in seventh. Tesla sold 2.5 times more Model 3 vehicles than BMW sold 3 Series. It's a remarkable achievement, and stands in contrast with the moves by Ford and GM to stop making small cars and sedans in the US."

I have a feeling that those comments will raise hackles from many quarters.
 
#266 ·
Nobody will convince me the Tesla model 3 is a luxury car, because it is not a luxury car. Is an expensive electric car with a mainstream interior and exterior design, and a very bad assembly quality.

If some people want to be fooled by Tesla, is their decision.
 
#267 ·
Nobody will convince me the Tesla model 3 is a luxury car, because it is not a luxury car. Is an expensive electric car with a mainstream interior and exterior design, and a very bad assembly quality.

If some people want to be fooled by Tesla, is their decision.
Yup; it's their decision. Those people are called customers and they vote with their dollars. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of customers who are not buying Ford/Lincoln today for whatever reason. It's up to Ford/Lincoln and Tesla's competitors to convince customers that the emperor has no clothes. Trouble is they can't do it today. We'll have to wait until they can before we really know what customers will do.
 
#272 ·
Tesla is bizarre to me. I don't see anything suggesting "luxury" or "premium" in the styling, and the powertrains have been as infamous for fires as their "ludicrous modes'. The cars are known for panel gaps and iffy quality in general.

I honestly believe that Ford and other automakers can marginalize Tesla in the near future simply by building better cars around competitive powertrains...and I also think there will be some alliance, eventually, as Elon seems much more interested in the innovation side of the biz than the typical, literal "nuts and bolts" side of things.
 
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#273 ·
...judging by the first efforts by established players like Jag, Audi, and M-B it won't be as easy as many believe. Comparisons between the I-Pace and E-Tron show they both trail substantially in efficiency and, hence, range. E-Tron and I-Pace are real world 200mi range EVs, with large batteries. A Mod Y will run circles around them when it arrives. And people can continue to wonder why the technically superior vehicle continues to outsell the others, even if they didn't smother the seats and dash in the right cow skin.
 
#280 ·
IMO, speaking realistically about Tesla should not be equated with "support" and looking into the face of truth is hardly "irrational." As a website supporting Ford products, FIN has a whole section devoted with discussing the competition where one can be a Ford fan and discuss Ford's competition openly unless, in the future, the administrators decide to resort to censorship. This just in, everybody is not going to agree on everything, not with you, not with me.

My presence here and my references to observable facts and citing non-Ford sources is a sign of my support for Ford and their products even though Ford hasn't built the kind of car that I want for many years. I want Ford to take notice and take action and focus on product development. If they had done so in the past, their product lineup and their appeal to Wall Street would be much stronger than it is today. Pandering to Wall Street is what got Ford in this mess (except for and give thanks to the almighty F-150, which did receive adequate product development).

Now, Ford views Tesla as a legitimate threat, as well it should. The fact that hundreds of thousands of Tesla customers have put down deposits and waited for years - for a ****ty car with horrendous quality control problems that too often acts as a fireworks display - should tell you/us/Ford something.
 
#277 ·
Oh my God, some people talk here like the first electric car was builded by Tesla. No! Tesla is producing electrics cars losing money... that is the reason others automakers doesn’t build that kind of cars at high volumes like Tesla. Now, with the new batteries and the VW’s diesel scandal, the timing to build electric cars is better and many automakers will make better, a lot better electric cars than Tesla. Tesla was not the first automaker in the electric car race, but maybe will be the first that will go out of it .
 
#278 ·
Oh my God, some people talk here like the first electric car was builded by Tesla. No!
Yes, Tesla is the first company to mass produce straight up electric cars. The paradigm shift that Tesla is driving is comparable to how Henry Ford changed everything with his moving assembly line. Henry didn't build the first car, nor the first moving assembly line, but he was the first one to bring them together at scale and it changed everything.

Tesla is producing electrics cars losing money... that is the reason others automakers doesn’t build that kind of cars at high volumes like Tesla.
I'm not sure what world you're living in but it's not uncommon for new, disruptive business models to take years to turn a profit. Tesla isn't just building the first mass produced electric cars, but also massive factories to produce the batteries needed, and electric semis to deliver them, not to mention the charging network to make it all workable for owners. To downplay what Tesla has accomplished just because they haven't reached profitability is to deny reality.

Now, with the new batteries and the VW’s diesel scandal, the timing to build electric cars is better and many automakers will make better, a lot better electric cars than Tesla. Tesla was not the first automaker in the electric car race, but maybe will be the first that will go out of it .
Tesla isn't going anywhere. Even if they never reach profitability on their own they'll be a prime takeover target to help a larger, short sighted company catch up.
 
#285 ·
https://www.foxbusiness.com/luxury/tesla-customers-to-lose-key-tax-credit-next-month

Shame about the tax credit, but this was interesting......

The Model 3 was intended as a way to bring the luxury electric vehicle to the average consumer. Musk promised to deliver a $35,000 version of the car, but the entrepreneur acknowledged that isn’t possible for Tesla just yet. In October, Musk announced a $45,000 Model 3.

Musk said on Twitter in May that if the company had shipped the $35,000 version right away, Tesla would “lose money [and] die.”




Tesla is that frail?
What happens when they are not the only EV car maker on the market I wonder?
 
#286 ·
...maybe one day we will know. I'd wager Tesla is building the Model 3 in China before Ford delivers its first real EV (and they just broke ground this month). In other news, Porsche's 2+2 Taycan will be starting at $90k for the RWD model. Probably $99k for the dual motor, and $130k for the performance model. I'd imagine M-Bs EQC comes in at $80-100k. Add that the I-Pace and e-tron are both $70-90k models, for vehicles in the Model 3 size range, it looks like Tesla has a cost advantage, currently.

I really do hope Ford shows theirs soon. They could be very competitive with an e-tron GT sized vehicle in the $60k range.
 
#293 · (Edited)
It seems to me that if Ford had such vast experience building EVs, they would have been able to meet the Tesla challenge within a very few years. Tesla's "popularity" has been a publicly known phenomenon since the introduction of the Model S in 2012. With over 200 mile range, the Model S has sold 119,000 by the end of 2017.

Here is Ford's vast experience:

Ford's Ranger EV (1998-2002) had a constant-speed range of 115 miles at 45 mph with the NiMH batteries; 87 miles with lead-acid. Ford sold about 1,500 mostly to fleets.

The Focus EV (2011-2018) has a nominal range of 115 miles. By the end of 2017, Ford sold about 9,000, mostly to fleets. Ford spent as little R&D on this vehicle as possible, buying the power train from Magna, a Canadian company, and gussying-up an already in-production model. It looked like, was marketed like and sold like nothing special.

No doubt, Ford is now feverishly developing its bevy of new EVs, as well they should. IMO, If Ford had developed this fever in 2012, employing its vast experience, Ford would have their answers to Tesla on the road RIGHT NOW.
 
#311 ·
...Ford crushed every single Ranger they made when they came back off-lease. Wouldn't let them hang around in the marketplace.

The Focus EV was for compliance only and looks like it. Have you seen the hatch on it? Not meant for mass-market and was zero effort. Ford killed off their Escape hybrid, which was very successful and replaced it with the CMax they couldn't give away. If you watched Ford from afar, it might appear they actually have no desire to be competitive with EVs or PHEVs.
 
#294 · (Edited)
Bigger batteries is not exactly a marvel of engineering. Neither is dedicated platforms.

So if Ford did have their new dedicated BEV's available today, developed over the last 4-5 years or so.......where would they be exactly? About where GM is today with a BEV that is not exactly all that impressive, and costs them plenty with every sale. But yeah, they can advertise how far ahead they came in BEV's and get some modest press beyond where they are. All while sales will continue to decline for BEV's as gas prices are well below $2 (saw it $1.89 locally) now and as Ford is on the verge of launching all new hybrids without all the BEV restrictions and cost and of course, tax credits are taken away.

I hardly think Ford is missing out on much. I doubt many do.

I would much rather see Ford expand into that market smartly, as they obviously are, with an emphasis on sustainable profit, technological growth while also aligning resources well into next phases.....not emphasizing an extra 50 miles of range due to a bigger battery. Hardly anything to brag about.
 
#297 · (Edited)
I think we can all agree that the Focus EV is a real BEV. So is a golf cart.

I think some of us believe that if Ford had quietly done R&D on EV and platform technology over the years since the Model S was introduced and even before, Ford would be in a better position than it is now. Instead, they wrong every drop of blood out of CD4 while foregoing the opportunity to develop new flexible platforms that could accommodate EV powertrains, and did next to nothing about battery tech.

Those chickens have flown the coop. Is Ford now betting the house or, at least taking an equity loan on it, trying to make a quantum leap, instead of evolving organically into the electric future? Is Ford going to cease development of the ICE?

I don't think so or, more accurately, I hope not. We now have CD6. There are still engineering concepts out there that aim to increase ICE efficiency and performance. IMO, PHEVs will be the bridge for a long time, at least until ICEs are only thought of as range-extenders. Today, ICE with tranny-case e-motors. Tomorrow, ICE-front/e-rear powertrains (or visa versa). There may not be a need for a BEV answer to Tesla today but that day will come.

Meanwhile, Tesla is going to rule the U.S. BEV market for quite a while.
 
#298 · (Edited)
Yeah, Tesla will "rule" the zero profit BEV market, selling far more zero profit BEV cars when compared to brands introducing BEV, while profiting dearly from ICE products in massive numbers at the same time.

So what.

Again, if your priority is sales volumes zero margin products, then let Tesla keep that mantle for a while longer.

And round and round we go, Ford shoulda woulda coulda.
Meanwhile, GM has and did and sees zero profit and zero benefit from rushing a failed BEV product to market.

Ford is taking the long term view, clearly, leveraging their many years of electrification into their next gen products that have been in the works for years now. Ford is the second mouse more likely to get the cheese (relative to GM).
 
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