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Mission: LINCOLN!

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#1 ·
Ideal Lincoln Lineups: Vehicles - Marketing - Design - DNA
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imho part of Lincoln's problem has been having a lineup that's difficult to understand (for some).
C.J. O'Donnell, Lincoln's Director of Marketing has been using the phrase "MK Series" in a couple videos,
so here are existing and proposed models arranged into 3 'series' ... starting with the top range, once RWD finally happens

Star-series
Std Bridge of Weir leather and most other features - very few options; PLUS maybe 50% aluminum/alloy/c.f. construction
• Zodiac - Mustang-based coupecabrio & sportsedan

• Constellation - GRwdP - Continental-based swoopy '4-door-coupe'
<temp
• Continental - GRwdP - flagship sedan
<phase One (more in post#37)
Together the Continental and Constellation probably replace the mkR
• Navigator - based on nextgen lighter F-150
( approx. horsepower, all the above offer:
2.7EB 350hp -- 3.7v6 300hp -- 3.5EB 400hp -- 5.0v8 400hp -- 5.0Hybrid 400hp -- 5.0EB 600hp )

MK-series
all v6 F-Awd with std Leather and including parts not common-with-Ford being aluminum/alloy/c.f.
• mkT - restyled with more formality to resemble the Rolls Royce Phantom

• mkS - on the mkT's longer wheelbase, styled closer to the more sculpted mkT-Concept

• mkR - on the current mkS's or nextgen Taurus's wlb, new '4-door-coupe' styling

( engines for the 3 above models:
3.7v6 300hp -- 3.7Hybrid 310hp -- 2.7EB 350hp -- 3.5EB 400hp )
update: ( 5.0 v8, Awd only ...no seriously! ...Aviator too )
• mkX - more differentiation from the Edge on the new platform
( above (non-v8) engines plus a 2.7Hybrid 250hp - Yes, 2 Hybrids )
Here's where the new twist comes in. The smaller F-Awd vehicles will be in both the MK-series & the new i-series for 4 cylinder drivetrains
• mkZ - new platform & styling - exclusively uses the new (rumored) 2.7v6:

( 2.7v6 230hp -- 2.7Hybrid 250hp -- 2.7EB 350hp )
• mkG - Kuga-based, same drivetrains as the mkZ

• mkE - sedan based on longer Grand C-Max wlb ...NO Focus competition!

....and hatch/coupe based on Focus wlb ...ditto!

( same drivetrains as the mkZ & mkG including the EB)
note: in keeping with my "no performance marketing" for Lincoln idea, the RS label is not used in the U.S.
the "RS" for the Rest of the World, may be a 2.7EB MKE with a less luxurious Std trim (see i-series' features)


i-series - similar to the European Individual models

4 cylinder Only drivetrains and perhaps SLIGHTLY fewer std features; fewer exterior colors & One Interior: half Leather half microfiber-suede; & a 'simplified', mainly black grille ... possibly withOUT the name LINCOLN appearing on the cars ... these are geared to bring new/younger customers into the Lincoln showrooms

• 'Z' - may use some Mondeo trims/parts
• 'G' - may use some Kuga trims/parts
( both offer 1.6EB 180hp -- 2.0Hybrid 185hp - & maybe a 2.0EB 240hp )
• 'E' - sedan based on longer Grand C-Max wlb ...NO Focus competition!
could be marketed in Europe with a Ford grille & diesel option as the CORTINA
• 'E' - coupe or 3-door based on Focus wlb ...ditto!
could be marketed in Europe with a Ford grille, diesel, and sliding glass-roof as the CAPRI to replace the Focus-Cabrio
( both use 1.6EB 180hp -- 1.6Hybrid 160hp, at least to start)
or instead
( all offer Only a 1.6EB-PIH 210hp )
 
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#327 ·
If Lincoln survive this painful moment, the Continental ( RWD, big car) is a mandatory return for the brand. This car could be as luxury as Ford want and can make it.... the heritage of this name let it figth Cadillac, Bentley, Rolls Royce, brands that are the target for the Continental in the 50`s and earlys 60`s.
 
#329 ·
AGREE - s'why I said "OH YEAH?!?"
in many ways
imho the only pull-of-the-past was PRESIDENT Lincoln...
really they're doing NEITHER so far

maybe this just suit/cheerleader-speak?
Some insider should write a book about Lincoln's renaissance after it's all over with.

hmm........
&
hmmmmm.....................

I *do* hope the new Continental is super-modern tho
imho just the name and elegance should be revived
Agree. I want the Continental to be very elegant yet modern at the same time. No retro-futuristic designs allowed.

it would help with PAINT
but destroy a lot of the volume advantage imho
unless
it was only for Lincolns that don't share a Ford platform
but then
I don't see them FILLING a factory = 300k yearly afaik
(actually I don't see a need for Lincolns that don't share a Ford platform)
I'm not too familiar with manufacturing, but Crewe and Goodwood seem do to fine.... And some of their cars share a platform with VW and BMW models.
 
#330 ·
^ I don't know manufacturing either, N.R.
but think Lincoln-unique paint colors are rare because the paint shops can only handle a certain number of colors
& re: volume
if co-platformed Lincolns are built at a separate plant, all the stampings & parts would have to be transported from where they're made (near-or-in the respective Ford plants afaik)


If Lincoln survive this painful moment, the Continental ( RWD, big car) is a mandatory return for the brand. This car could be as luxury as Ford want and can make it.... the heritage of this name let it figth Cadillac, Bentley, Rolls Royce, brands that are the target for the Continental in the 50`s and earlys 60`s.
I've been thinking lately that Lincoln could do better by concentrating on larger vehicles as they've been traditionally for all-time! (ie more like how I see Mercedes whose icon is the S, than BMW & their 3-series) ...with Mercury doing the smaller ones...making the MKC a conundrum for me.
tho the LincStang's sportsedan & coupe-cabrio feel separate to me

(just posted elsewhere,
I'd like to see Lincoln [eventually] have 3 [more, Rwd] models on the order of the S- E- & CLS
PLUS (immediately & TEMPORARILY: one full cycle)
an [Awd/Fwd] MKS-mate with new sheetmetal, stretched to near TownCar size ... while there are still traditional Lincoln buyers extant who want them)

...guess Navi, Aviator, MKX, MKC would be fine for SuvCuvs**, especially if my version of a miniSport/Mariner is different enough from the C


** maybe plus my rugged/fast all-terrain 2-row superSPORT utility: "Panther" (Raptor-inspired, maybe with a touch of Hummer "brutal-chic" ...think Paris-Dakar Rally + über-Lux)
 
#332 ·
I rather liked the audacity of having only upscale drivetrains in a reborn 'TownCar'
& treating it, if not quite like a flagship, at least with some respect
Every Lincoln needs to be treated with respect, but the Town Car in my world wouldn't be about the driving experience. The entire car would be focused on the experience of the passenger. The backs of the front seats would be decorated, the ride would be fabulously comfortable, the backseat would have a cooler, a large sunroof...

QUOTE=sfbreh: No, but as dumb as this sounds... Proportions. Big FWD vehicles have their awkward front ends exaggerated. See the profile of Cruze vs XTS.
guess I just don't believe that something 210"ish or more ovl actually HAS proportion :wink:
:D

Big cars are where proportions are most noticeable, I think. mostly because there's more "proportion" to work with. Front ends can only get so small, so it's less consequential for smaller cars.

Here's a list of things I would like Lincoln Motor Company to achieve:
1. Redo their logo
:confused:

2. Build its own manufacturing facilities(kinda like Wixom)
3. Implement a really good bespoke program
Yes.

4. Try to bring show car details to production vehicles(gorgeous side-view mirrors, maybe abolishing door handles, cooler interiors, etc.)
Yes. Even GT-R-style pullout door handles would be a cool feature and probably not that expensive.

5. ALL exclusive powertrains
Meh. Not a big deal.

6. Gorgeous dealership facilities(offering different architectural designs and boutique style like Rolls-Royce dealerships)
7. Improve nomenclature
8. Build a heritage car or car(s)

Feel free to add to the list.
Yes, but I don't understand what you mean by the different designs. Uniformity is essential in brand-building, which Lincoln needs desperately.

At one time Cadillac had the sub-brand Lasalle. This was advertised as LaSalle by Cadillac. Would something like this work for Lincoln to fill the void left by Mercury to build volume and be sucessful?
No.

The sub-brand could be called Zephyr By Lincoln.(of course you all will not agree on this naming but that's ok. it's just for example) This Zephyr By Lincoln sub-brand would carry the pocket-luxury (entry-level) allowing Lincoln to focus (no pun intended) on being the prestige Brand that it once was. More people would consider a "By Lincoln" sub-brand rather than a premium level Ford model. The Lincoln name has more lustre to it than the fancy Ford model.
And here's where your argument falls to pieces. You say it so matter-of-factly. It's not true.

Lincoln has no luster to it. That's why reviews are favoring Titanium Fusions, or fancy Fords, over Lincoln.

Plus Zephyr By Lincoln could be developed for the Acura, Lexus, Buick crowd and Lincoln could move up to BMW, MB, Cadillac etc .
I like this idea for a mid-range competitor...

But I think that gap would be better serviced by growing Ford to fill that gap on the lower end. Lincoln doesn't have to command the same prices as the competition. I don't think it should, even if it could. With more bespoke options, you should be able to spec your Lincoln to the moon.

Of course the crown could be the Continental brand (which would be developed as a super-quality, super-prestige brand to compete with Rolls, Bentley, Aston Martin etc) and pick up where the Mark II left off. This time around we not only get the Mark 9 but the sedan and hardtop convertible(that were originally planned) plus a few other models.
Not sure what the Continental brand was, but:

1) Aston Martin isn't really in that group, plus it's entirely on its way to obsolescence.
2) New or resuscitated brands like this don't turn out to well when there's competition.
a) Example 1: Maybach failed miserably.
b) Example 2: Bugatti has zero competitors.
3) If this dream Lincoln at some point doesn't have the cachet to build a Pullman-type stretched flagship, it has a problem. It'd be a cheaper and likely more successful venue than building a new brand from scratch.
 
#333 ·
I've been thinking lately that Lincoln could do better by concentrating on larger vehicles as they've been traditionally for all-time! (ie more like how I see Mercedes whose icon is the S, than BMW & their 3-series) ...with Mercury doing the smaller ones...making the MKC a conundrum for me.
Brands can't survive anymore, catering to a single end of the market. Lincoln has the advantage of being based off of Fords, but... Meh.

** maybe plus my rugged/fast all-terrain 2-row superSPORT utility: "Panther" (Raptor-inspired, maybe with a touch of Hummer "brutal-chic" ...think Paris-Dakar Rally + über-Lux)
I like the idea, but you've got to pick a single image. Brutal-chic is counter to elegance.
 
#334 ·
Every Lincoln needs to be treated with respect, but the Town Car in my world wouldn't be about the driving experience. The entire car would be focused on the experience of the passenger. The backs of the front seats would be decorated, the ride would be fabulously comfortable, the backseat would have a cooler, a large sunroof...
Agree
did what I said sound so different??



2b2 said:
...Lincoln could do better by concentrating on larger vehicles...
Brands can't survive anymore, catering to a single end of the market...
Lincoln is only 1/2 a Brand imho
LINK


...I like the idea, but you've got to pick a single image. Brutal-chic is counter to elegance.
I disagree

SR71


Hublot


Matrix


streamlined steam locomotive (by Raymond Loewy)


Mrs. Peel


Red Oktober


 
#341 ·
Unique for sure. I will say this, it is not easy to make a CUV rear look, fashionable. It's more about function.

But that said, hardly grotesque.....
To me the MKT is like the previous MKZ, they are both terrible when you consider their concepts. The MKT concept was drop dead gorgeous as was the Zepher and they both turned out very bland, ugly even.





Those two concepts are crazy good looking. I would go so far as to say the Zepher concept is more attractive than todays MKZ. The difference between the concept and the production car is why I much prefer Lincoln's current approach of concepts that are 99.9% production car.
 
#343 ·
reference: last mention of the MKT in the MISSION before today post#296 March 11


To me the MKT is like the previous MKZ, they are both terrible when you consider their concepts. The MKT concept was drop dead gorgeous as was the Zepher and they both turned out very bland, ugly even.

Those two concepts are crazy good looking. I would go so far as to say the Zepher concept is more attractive than todays MKZ...
YES!



The difference between the concept and the production car is why I much prefer Lincoln's current approach of concepts that are 99.9% production car.
this I'll agree with too *IF* we postulate that the Z & T Concepts were UNbuildable as shown
which
I believe to be true


MKT Concept wheelbase = 120.7" per my txt datafile
(longer than the production MKT)
AND WHICH FOMOCO VEHICLES HAD THAT EXACT WHEELBASE?

imho easy to "hang" a concept shell on the FRAME too...


How can anyone say this does not look good for a wagon like CUV???
• subjective
• I personally sorta like the production MKT's exterior appearance
• I *adored* the styling of the MKT CONCEPT (pix only, sadly) esp the subtle sculpting of the rear flanks
but
the point is the MKT has not been popular enough to ADVANCE the Lincoln Brand's "CAUSE"
perhaps
a SEDAN built on the long wheelbase D3/4 platform could have done better
(a direct & modern TownCar successor and all that)



I'd be happy to repeat what I've already written about what
I'd like to see in the future (to maybe help SAVE Lincoln)
but
my ISP connection is barely working today





next-day-Edit:
(just for completeness, not to restart the MKT Debate)
I see nothing in either that would suggest they were unbuildable in that neither had contours that would be any more difficult to put into production than the second gen Taurus. I do understand that the Z had to share a platform with the Fusion so that is why its narrower with the stubby wheel base. The T concept is apparently smaller than the production version per wingsnut so again it didn't fit with the platform to be built as shown...
I meant that the Z & T Concepts were Not built on the platforms used for the production vehicles.
&
since my ISP is sorta working now
I looked up dimensions
_wlb____ovl____w____h____
120.7 - 208.4 - 78.7 - 63.9 - MKT CONCEPT
117.9 - 207.6 - 76.0 - 67.4 - production MKT
117.9 - 202.3 - 79.9 - 67.6 - Flex
so
the Concept wasn't smaller - just LOWER
and
I already mentioned my theory it was on the Panther chassis

I actually liked the production Z ON THE ROAD (the original official photos, apparently removed from NetCarShow, ARE AWFUL)
but can't imagine what platform they built the Zephyr Concept on - maybe a "Mustang" like the MKR?
...it sure didn't resemble the production version
 
#344 ·
^
actually, I think the MKZ turned out better than concept eventually.
We're just going to have to agree, you're wrong! :thumb:

I do agree the mid cycle refresh was a vast improvement over the original, but the proportions just plain stink in comparison to the concept. The concepts longer wheelbase and width were miles ahead of the production car. And to me I can see some in the Continental front and the semi-slab sides.

To me the concept Zephyr (SP?) looks premium, it could sit beside any Audi of its day and look like it belongs. The production car looks like what it is, an volume mid-size sedan in the Camry segment. It has no presence, it doesn't demand you're attention like it should.

And the MKT needed to be toned down a bit, and it was.
But it was more about proportions, where concept was much smaller. Smaller always looks better.
I could be wrong but I just don't see the purpose in building a entry level luxury school bus. The production MKT is just plain hideous and thats a large part of why Lincoln is in the dumps right now, their execution has been less than good. They showed sexy concept after sexy concept, I'm thinking the above MKT, Zepher, and of course the MKR. They had the vision, they just didn't execute on it. :banghead:

Edit: I do understand that given the economy and Fords overall lack of health they weren't in postion to do so, its frustrating as **** to know they could have.
 
#345 ·
How can anyone say this does not look good for a wagon like CUV???
I personally thing a wagon should be a wagon, and there are many examples of sexy wagons on the market, just not in the N/A market. I do not like the odd proportions of a wagon/CUV mixture, and based upon the lack of sales, it appears most agree. Its not tall enough nor high enough to evoke the CUV like look, nor is it low enough to to be a sexy wagon, its a miss from every angle.

I understand that Ford/Lincoln were trying to hit on a unique niche in the market with them, but it turns out there is a reason that niche is virtually empty.

And why do so few not like this unique and bold front style???
I'll give you that it is bold, but its just blah. The original grill was far superior to this update, it had character. That original grill had detail going back to the second gen Navigator, pre-braces, and the LS. It was both classy and had presence, it looked premium. The new grill on the T and S just scream Oldsmobile and/or disposable razor.

I don't mean to be picking on you as I am generally in complete agreement with you, just not today I guess!! :thumb:

I missed both of these comments earlier. :angel
 
#346 ·
this I'll agree with too *IF* we postulate that the Z & T Concepts were UNbuildable as shown
which I believe to be true
I see nothing in either that would suggest they were unbuildable in that neither had contours that would be any more difficult to put into production than the second gen Taurus. I do understand that the Z had to share a platform with the Fusion so that is why its narrower with the stubby wheel base. The T concept is apparently smaller than the production version per wingsnut so again it didn't fit with the platform to be built as shown.

I guess that is where Ford needs to step up its investment in the Lincoln brand, it absolutely must execute on these beautiful designs if they ever expect Lincoln to have presence parked next to a BMW/Merc/Audi/Caddy. If the C comes through 99% intact then I will have hope that they are headed the right direction.


the point is the MKT has not been popular enough to ADVANCE the Lincoln Brand's "CAUSE"
perhaps
a SEDAN built on the long wheelbase D3/4 platform could have done better
(a direct & modern TownCar successor and all that)
I agree, though it will have to abandon the tall body and bring some sexy to the table! The MKS and Taurus are both to damn tall because they had to use the same platform to build the Flex and MKT off of them and the end result is all four have been dismal sales failures. There is simply no way to build a tall sedan and have it look appealing.
 
#347 ·
MKZ looked nearly exactly like concept, sans the typical concept-only wide stance wheel base and over sized wheels and tires.
You bought into that lame cliche?

update made it look much better yet.

MKT is more or less a wagon in proportions. Why on earth would they give it tallish SUV proportions....when Navi is there. Duh.

And sales are proportional to other $60K CUV's, and far better than any wagon.
 
#348 ·
MKZ looked nearly exactly like concept, sans the typical concept-only wide stance wheel base and over sized wheels and tires.
You bought into that lame cliche?
Yep, hook, line, and sinker. Thing is the Audi A8 of that period was built with those same proportions and they sold like hot cakes! You cannot build a car that has entry level presence and expect people to pay upmarket prices. I agree the MKZ after the refresh was a very nice car, but it fully deserved the tarted up Ford reputation. The new MKZ IMO does not deserve that reputation, thats a start.

MKT is more or less a wagon in proportions. Why on earth would they give it tallish SUV proportions....when Navi is there. Duh.
Again, looking at the luxury segment, or any really, you don't see overly tall wagons because they simply look horrendous. CUVs are successful because they evoke our love of trucks/SUVs. Wagons can be successful if they're practical and look great, neither the MKT nor the Flex manage to do the latter.

The MKT just has no place in the market as it sales attest to. Lincoln would have been better served having built a large, traditionally proportioned Town Car replacement as 2b2 suggests given the MKT appears to be aimed at former T/C owners and the livery market.

And sales are proportional to other $60K CUV's.
I cannot say as I've looked at the sales breakdown on the MKT. I can say I see the big Audi a lot and rarely see a MKT and further Ford would be building a next gen of both the MKT and Flex if they were selling as well as their competition.
 
#349 ·
Audi sales comparisons?
I don't get that at all. And the A8? Really? Still does not sell **** compared to MKZ, should you not be talking A6 or A4 even?
And the Q sells in same or lessor numbers than better value MKT.

No matter, FoMoCo is what really matters, and they far outsell Audi.
I have owned a Flex and it was the best all around family vehicle. Fast as heck, fun to drive, roomy, a ton of utility, a blast to travel with. I can tell you never even came close to one. And the MKT is that much better. Pulling the sales volume card is always the last resort though, I understand. No worries.
 
#350 ·
Audi sales comparisons?
I don't get that at all. And the A8? Really?
You suggested that the wide, long wheelbase style was a cliche, I was simply pointing out that it has been used successfully on the A8. I was not suggesting the MKZ was a direct comparison to the A8, simply the style works.

Still does not sell **** compared to MKZ, should you not be talking A6 or A4 even?
Per wikipedia the A8 sold 6,002, A6 sold 18,988 in 2012 to the MKZ's 28,053, really though, only the A6 would be a direct comparison.

I did not mention the A4 or A6 as they aren't of similar proportions to the A8 and the Zephyr concept. Remember I'm ONLY talking style here. By proportions I'm not talking overall size but width to wheelbase. The Zephyr was very A8 in proportion in that sense.

And the Q sells in same or lessor numbers than better value MKT.
Per wikipedia, I know, I know, but its the best I could do, the Q7 sold 11,008 in 2012 to the MKT's 7094. Edit: Audi number from here: http://www.audiusanews.com/pressrelease/3290/98/audi-sets-new-u.s-sales-record-139310-vehicles


No matter, FoMoCo is what really matters, and they far outsell Audi.
If you want to go that direction then you need to compare FoMoCo to the entire Volkswagon group to be fair. This particular thread though is dedicated to Lincoln which is why I have limited my discussion as such.

I have owned a Flex and it was the best all around family vehicle. Fast as heck, fun to drive, roomy, a ton of utility, a blast to travel with. I can tell you never even came close to one. And the MKT is that much better. Pulling the sales volume card is always the last resort though, I understand. No worries.
Defensive much? You're not really following along here, I have never questioned the value the MKT, or Flex for that matter. I've never even questioned whether they stack up in quality or utility. I've given zero consideration to how fun they may or may not be. What I've said is that neither the MKT nor the previous MKZ possessed the style or presence of the leading players in the luxury market. In both cases I have pointed out my opinion that the concepts for each were spectacular, class leading style in the case of the MKT, and no less than equal in the case of the Zephyr!

You would be wrong as I've been close to both, in actually. I've never driven either but have spent some quality time with them at the auto shows. As you may have guessed I have never driven either given they aren't my cup of tea. That last part isn't really pertinent though as my gripes about both vehicles is their style only.

I find it strange that you're taking my opinion so personally.
 
#351 ·
Don't really feel like reading all that, but I did notice you were comparing 2012 sales of mkz......which stopped production last September.


Cherry picking data to make a point is where I draw the line.
Lincolns future is what I am watching carefully and care about. Short of this botched launch, everything is in place and looks good to increase volumes.

Short of that, meh.......
 
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