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Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin
"The botched labels shed light on an unexplained downgrade in the crossovers' mpg ratings from the 2015 to 2016 model year. All are equipped by the same 3.6-liter V6 and six-speed automatic transmission, but the rating mysteriously dropped from 17/24 mpg in 2015 to 15/22 mpg for 2016. The AWD variants followed the same trend, falling from 16/23 mpg to 15/22 mpg."
What seems to be happening is that the EPA 'model year' schedule is not the calendar year or the model year the automaker assigns when launching the vehicle, but the timeframe the vehicle is sold before a new model year is launched based on the automakers launch cycle. GM has a late model year launch schedule, which has them selling a previous model year well into the next model year. Which means the 2016MY Traverse launched late, and scheduled to roll well into what should be MY2017 based on EPA schedules.
Ford on the other hand has early launch dates, which is why the Escape(for sale April 2016), down 2mpg combined 2WD and AWD, is already following the new EPA rules, and needs the new 9-speed.
What seems to be happening is that the EPA 'model year' schedule is not the calendar year or the model year the automaker assigns when launching the vehicle, but the timeframe the vehicle is sold before a new model year is launched based on the automakers launch cycle. GM has a late model year launch schedule, which has them selling a previous model year well into the next model year. Which means the 2016MY Traverse launched late, and scheduled to roll well into what should be MY2017 based on EPA schedules.
Ford on the other hand has early launch dates, which is why the Escape(for sale April 2016), down 2mpg combined 2WD and AWD, is already following the new EPA rules, and needs the new 9-speed.
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Last edited by 2b2; 05-17-2016 at 09:18 PM.
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Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
Inside GM and Ford’s Transmission Sharing Strategy
GMI: article - thread
by Michael Accardi May 17, 2016
One of our sources has shed light on the transmission sharing strategy between the General and FoMoCo.
The pair agreed to develop 9-speed and 10-speed transmissions together back in 2013...
...On the 9-speed front, it’s being launched in the Malibu Premier first; it’s believed Ford will launch the 9-speed sometime during 2017 in the Fusion, before full blown roll out with the next-gen Fusion. GM is expected to launch the 9-speed across the full Malibu range come 2018.
...the 9-speed is being evaluated for fuel economy as well as performance for a small displacement turbo...
...The 9-speed picture remains murkier. Beyond the Malibu and Fusion there are no additional confirmations, but there has been speculation the new Acadia will gain the gearbox, by extension we should see it in the Buick Envision and the new Equinox at some point. On the Ford side the Fusions CD3 platform mates the Ford Edge and Lincoln’s MKX and MKZ are the leading candidates.
GMI: article - thread
by Michael Accardi May 17, 2016
One of our sources has shed light on the transmission sharing strategy between the General and FoMoCo.
The pair agreed to develop 9-speed and 10-speed transmissions together back in 2013...
...On the 9-speed front, it’s being launched in the Malibu Premier first; it’s believed Ford will launch the 9-speed sometime during 2017 in the Fusion, before full blown roll out with the next-gen Fusion. GM is expected to launch the 9-speed across the full Malibu range come 2018.
...the 9-speed is being evaluated for fuel economy as well as performance for a small displacement turbo...
...The 9-speed picture remains murkier. Beyond the Malibu and Fusion there are no additional confirmations, but there has been speculation the new Acadia will gain the gearbox, by extension we should see it in the Buick Envision and the new Equinox at some point. On the Ford side the Fusions CD3 platform mates the Ford Edge and Lincoln’s MKX and MKZ are the leading candidates.
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FIN Staff Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 7,893
Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
I think on the Ford side, the new 9-speed will launch in a version of the 2017 Fusion/MKZ and at the same time being an option on a trim level of the 2017 Edge/MKX, Escape and 2017 Continental 3.0t.
With 2017 EPA rules knocking off about 2mpg combined across the lineup, I would expect Ford to usher in the new 9 and 10-speed in volume models with speed.
Best of all, all NEW Lincoln cars and CUVs will be 9-speed by MY2018. Then will launch the New Navigator with the 10-speed.
I wonder if the 9-speed will fit in the refreshed 2017 MKT?
With 2017 EPA rules knocking off about 2mpg combined across the lineup, I would expect Ford to usher in the new 9 and 10-speed in volume models with speed.
Best of all, all NEW Lincoln cars and CUVs will be 9-speed by MY2018. Then will launch the New Navigator with the 10-speed.
I wonder if the 9-speed will fit in the refreshed 2017 MKT?
Last edited by Bloggin; 05-18-2016 at 02:01 PM.
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Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
if anyone is bored...
(I would be if my mouse & keybord didn't stop working every 2-5mins)
I'd love to see a list of all vehicles that (COULD) use th(is Transmission) in THIS order
- 3.0T
- 2.7T/EB
- 3.5T/EB
- 3.7
- 2.3EB
- everything else whatevs
cuz without really thinking about it, that's how I might like the 9-speed deployed
(I would be if my mouse & keybord didn't stop working every 2-5mins)
I'd love to see a list of all vehicles that (COULD) use th(is Transmission) in THIS order
- 3.0T
- 2.7T/EB
- 3.5T/EB
- 3.7
- 2.3EB
- everything else whatevs
cuz without really thinking about it, that's how I might like the 9-speed deployed
.
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Last edited by 2b2; 05-18-2016 at 04:16 PM. Reason: ...I didn't QUITE make sense before... 8-(
FIN Staff Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 7,893
Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
The F-150 launch on the Raptor and 3.5L EcoBoost does make it seem that Ford is launching on 'upgrade' engines, my guess is to minimize the price premium for the new transmission. Understanding that the cost of the premium engine must be going down, while the new transmission brings the combo back up. The 3.5L upgrade is already about $2,500 at lower trim levels for the F-150, so expect to increase the take rate, Ford will keep the upgrade about the same. Seeing that Ford needs the mpg increase for the high volume F-150 models for overall CAFE numbers as much as the consumer does personally.
2014 Lincoln MKZ
Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
Quote:
Originally Posted by zipzoomflyfast
View Post
Maybe this is why the 3.0T MKZ and Continental are "Late 2016" Availability
FIN Staff Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 7,893
Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
In a statement Wednesday to Automotive News, GM provided more information about how it says the error occurred. The ’16 models were equipped with new “emissions-related hardware,” which required new emissions tests for those vehicles, GM said.
“The fuel economy data from these tests were not captured in calculations made for EPA fuel economy labels ... causing 2016 model year fuel economy numbers to be overstated,” it said.
It seems trying to push actual 2017 model vehicles in under 2016 rules didn't work out. The new 'emissions-related hardware' was specifically for 2017 model year vehicles, and was required for the vehicles because they were launched well into the EPA's 2017 production model year.
GM and their double-speak continues, just like trying not to call the Volt a plug-in hybrid, which it is.
“The fuel economy data from these tests were not captured in calculations made for EPA fuel economy labels ... causing 2016 model year fuel economy numbers to be overstated,” it said.
It seems trying to push actual 2017 model vehicles in under 2016 rules didn't work out. The new 'emissions-related hardware' was specifically for 2017 model year vehicles, and was required for the vehicles because they were launched well into the EPA's 2017 production model year.
GM and their double-speak continues, just like trying not to call the Volt a plug-in hybrid, which it is.
FIN Staff Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 7,893
Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
"Technology Preview: We Drive Honda's 10-Speed Automatic Transmission
Motorathority
Nov 11, 2015
It wasn't too long ago that a six-speed automatic transmission was state of the art. Then we got seven-speed, eight-speed, and nine-speed units. One of the nine-speeds, designed by noted transmission manufacturer ZF, has given multi-speed transmissions a bad reputation. Paired with four-cylinder and V-6 transverse-mounted engines in Fiat Chrysler Automobiles [NYSE:FCAU], Jaguar Land Rover, and Honda/Acura vehicles, it dithers instead of downshifting, sometimes clunks into gears, and barely ever reaches the top gear.
Given those shortcomings, it may not be wise for any automaker to build a transmission with more gears. And yet Ford Motor Company [NYSE:F] and General Motors Company [NYSE:GM] are teaming up to build a 10-speed, and Honda is developing one of its own. The plan is to use the 10-speed with the V-6 engines in large Honda and Acura vehicles, possibly in 2018 models. Honda says it will improve fuel economy by 6.0 percent over the current six-speed.
Prior to the Tokyo Motor Show in late October, I got the chance to sample Honda's forthcoming 10-speed at the company's R&D Center in Tochigi, Japan.
The car I drove was an Acura RLX, which was paired with a 310-horsepower 3.5-liter V-6 and a development version of the 10-speed. The test drive consisted of two laps around the facility's high-speed oval, which means I spent just a few minutes in the car. However, I was able to assess how this transmission acts in its current stage of development.
Both when accelerating from a stop and when fluctuating speeds, the transmission executed smooth shifts without delay. There was none of the shift shock that you get with the ZF nine-speed. I also eased along at about 70 mph to see if it would be able to get into 10th gear. That happened without a problem, and it was quite a weird sight to see 10th gear indicated in the instrument cluster between the speedometer and tachometer.
The oval permitted speeds up to 111 mph, and while I got up to that speed, I also slowed down to 70 then punched it to see how the transmission would react in a simulated passing procedure. Honda says the transmission can downshift up to four gears at a time, but during this test the transmission downshifted from 10th all the way to 4th. It probably occurred in two steps: 10th to 6th, then 6th to 4th, but it happened quickly enough that any driver would be happy with that performance on the highway.
My time with the 10-speed was too limited to render a verdict, and low-speed city driving would expose any problems it might have with indecision. However, based on this short drive, this transmission looks like a winner."
Motorathority
Nov 11, 2015
It wasn't too long ago that a six-speed automatic transmission was state of the art. Then we got seven-speed, eight-speed, and nine-speed units. One of the nine-speeds, designed by noted transmission manufacturer ZF, has given multi-speed transmissions a bad reputation. Paired with four-cylinder and V-6 transverse-mounted engines in Fiat Chrysler Automobiles [NYSE:FCAU], Jaguar Land Rover, and Honda/Acura vehicles, it dithers instead of downshifting, sometimes clunks into gears, and barely ever reaches the top gear.
Given those shortcomings, it may not be wise for any automaker to build a transmission with more gears. And yet Ford Motor Company [NYSE:F] and General Motors Company [NYSE:GM] are teaming up to build a 10-speed, and Honda is developing one of its own. The plan is to use the 10-speed with the V-6 engines in large Honda and Acura vehicles, possibly in 2018 models. Honda says it will improve fuel economy by 6.0 percent over the current six-speed.
Prior to the Tokyo Motor Show in late October, I got the chance to sample Honda's forthcoming 10-speed at the company's R&D Center in Tochigi, Japan.
The car I drove was an Acura RLX, which was paired with a 310-horsepower 3.5-liter V-6 and a development version of the 10-speed. The test drive consisted of two laps around the facility's high-speed oval, which means I spent just a few minutes in the car. However, I was able to assess how this transmission acts in its current stage of development.
Both when accelerating from a stop and when fluctuating speeds, the transmission executed smooth shifts without delay. There was none of the shift shock that you get with the ZF nine-speed. I also eased along at about 70 mph to see if it would be able to get into 10th gear. That happened without a problem, and it was quite a weird sight to see 10th gear indicated in the instrument cluster between the speedometer and tachometer.
The oval permitted speeds up to 111 mph, and while I got up to that speed, I also slowed down to 70 then punched it to see how the transmission would react in a simulated passing procedure. Honda says the transmission can downshift up to four gears at a time, but during this test the transmission downshifted from 10th all the way to 4th. It probably occurred in two steps: 10th to 6th, then 6th to 4th, but it happened quickly enough that any driver would be happy with that performance on the highway.
My time with the 10-speed was too limited to render a verdict, and low-speed city driving would expose any problems it might have with indecision. However, based on this short drive, this transmission looks like a winner."
Blacka$$
Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
I'm kind of curious what all will get the 9-speed. I cant imagine all FWD/AWD vehicles will get it as it doesnt seem like it would make a lot of sense in low torque applications like the Focus or Fiesta.
Re: GM/collaboration 9-speed transmission...At LAST
Quote:
Originally Posted by badhac
View Post
I'm kind of curious what all will get the 9-speed. I cant imagine all FWD/AWD vehicles will get it as it doesnt seem like it would make a lot of sense in low torque applications like the Focus or Fiesta.
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