1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal - Page 2 - Ford Inside News Community
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post #11 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2018, 08:27 AM
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

It would be great if there was a way to store energy produced by solar, wind, wave, or hydro as kinetic energy.
Think of the old wind-up toy cars with springs or pendulum clocks with weights, only some newer technology that would make it feasable.
I saw something a long time ago, where a farmer had a pallet of hay bales hanging out the barn loft. He had it geared so he could run his band saw/lathe for a long time just using the energy of the weight slowly decending. He then would hitch his horses up and pull the hay bales back up.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
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post #12 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2018, 09:58 AM
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

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Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
And if it suddenly costs $7 to fuel my car, I will join the many others who will surely riot and burn down DC.

Just say the word.
TVA completed reactor 2 at Watts Bar for about $5-6b. It produces 1.15GW of power. I don't think going nuclear would make it very expensive. But, I expect the system to get more efficient with more time shifting/storage. TVA has stated that they do not expect any new 24hr plant need for 20 years. And, a little over 40% of their generation is nuclear (about 8GW & I pay $.10kWh). They also sold off a nuclear site because they didn't foresee the need for it and are planning on shuttering 2 coal fired plants (hopefully one of the local ones). So, TVA's prediction of whether the system is ready seems at odds with others'.
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post #13 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2018, 10:09 AM
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

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Originally Posted by Logans Run View Post
It would be great if there was a way to store energy produced by solar, wind, wave, or hydro as kinetic energy.
Think of the old wind-up toy cars with springs or pendulum clocks with weights, only some newer technology that would make it feasable.
I saw something a long time ago, where a farmer had a pallet of hay bales hanging out the barn loft. He had it geared so he could run his band saw/lathe for a long time just using the energy of the weight slowly decending. He then would hitch his horses up and pull the hay bales back up.

That's what Tesla's big battery farms do. They time shift energy. There is a big one in South Australia (100MW). It saved the owners $50m in year one by simply allowing them to sell into the market at peak hours. On a local personal scale, that is what PowerWalls are. In places like CA where there is a drastic price difference between peak energy cost and off-peak, just time-shifting energy without any solar at all, can save an owner significant money.

Also, recently I saw an article on mechanical energy storage like that and the machine stacked and unstacked a tower of stones. Pretty cool.
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post #14 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-13-2018, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

I was thinking about what life would be like if I replaced all our cars with BEV in the future. Like many families, we have several cars in our driveway (I have 4), as well as large garages filled with stuff (boats, classic cars, snow mobiles, whatever) and absolutely no place to plug in one let alone many BEV's. I look around my neighborhood, and that theme plays out a lot…..long driveways filled with cars that never end up in a garage. And what about the many apartment or condo dwellers who have no place at all to plug in, often with no garage?

My point, BEV continues to be a limited application solution for most. I don’t see how a bit more range and lowered price will change that any time soon.
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post #15 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-14-2018, 08:50 AM
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

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Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
I was thinking about what life would be like if I replaced all our cars with BEV in the future. Like many families, we have several cars in our driveway (I have 4), as well as large garages filled with stuff (boats, classic cars, snow mobiles, whatever) and absolutely no place to plug in one let alone many BEV's. I look around my neighborhood, and that theme plays out a lotÖ..long driveways filled with cars that never end up in a garage. And what about the many apartment or condo dwellers who have no place at all to plug in, often with no garage?

My point, BEV continues to be a limited application solution for most. I donít see how a bit more range and lowered price will change that any time soon.
Garages are now work shops and storage areas.
With multiple cars parked in a driveway, there is always the issue of moving one to get to the other(or get the other close enough to plug in). I think plug in hybrids are going to be the way of the near future for most people. They can plug in when available, but still get great mileage when they cannot.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
Sherlock Holmes
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post #16 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-14-2018, 01:16 PM
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They make bollard mount chargers. It isn't exactly some insurmountable issue. In fact, it really takes minimal effort. I think you guys might be trying too hard to not like them.

"Why, back in my day, you could put your two pieces of transportation in the back forty and next spring you'd have another one. Can your fancy automobile do that?"

/MumbleGrumbleAngryOldMan
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post #17 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-14-2018, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

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They make bollard mount chargers. It isn't exactly some insurmountable issue. In fact, it really takes minimal effort. I think you guys might be trying too hard to not like them.

"Why, back in my day, you could put your two pieces of transportation in the back forty and next spring you'd have another one. Can your fancy automobile do that?"

/MumbleGrumbleAngryOldMan
So I would need several of these mounted outside.....where it rains.

Sounds perfect. I will make sure I am standing in a puddle when I plug in my 4 cars.
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post #18 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 06:01 PM
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

Yes, they didn't think of that. /sarcasm. They're meant to be outside, the connectors are deeply recessed, and the cable isn't live when you are handling it. The box and your car perform a handshake and systems test before the box sends the juice. You probably have a considerably smaller chance electrocuting yourself than setting yourself on fire fueling a car. Seriously. You're trying too hard.

Last edited by mooseman; 12-15-2018 at 06:07 PM.
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post #19 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 08:29 PM
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

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Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
Glad someone finally did the math here.
Notice how coal and gas produce are not that dissimilar CO2 (350kg vs 310kg).

I bet that 40 gal of gas could easily drop to only about 25-30 gal, using Ford's new hybrid system launching next year. That means CO2 drops to about 220 kg as well and well below a BEV.
You do realize that Coal only represents 29% of US Electrical production while Natural gas is 32%.

Also, this Quote Stood out to me
Quote:
Coal

Taking that same 1,000-mile road trip in an electric vehicle that needs 33 kilowatt-hours of energy to travel 100 miles, like a Tesla Model S, would require about 286 pounds (130 kilograms) of coal to be burned at the local power plant. Modern coal plants only convert about 35 percent of the fuelís energy into electricity, and about 10 percent of that electricity could be lost as it travels along power lines.

Even with all those losses, the electric vehicle road trip is still better for the climate than driving a gasoline-powered car. Burning that much coal would release about 310 kilograms of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, compared with 350 kilograms by the 40 gallons of gasoline. Even though coal tends to emit more pollutants than oil for the amount of energy it generates, the efficiency of the electric vehicle, which recharges its battery with every brake, more than makes up the difference.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Right now 34% of electricity is produced from non-GHG emitting sources another 32% is produced by Natural Gas (50% less polluting than Coal).

Using the average mix of US Electricity production means that the Tesla would produce only 149 Kg of CO2s vs the Gas powered vehicle of 350Kgs of CO2.

Ford's Mythical hybrid system connected to an oversized light-duty vehicle would be lucky to be as efficient as an Impala. the Article also leaves out the fact that Smaller and Lighter EVs like the Bolt and Model-3 are up to 30% more efficient than the heavier Model-S.

Cheers!

I am in the market for a premium compact car with an Independent Rear suspension.
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post #20 of 56 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 08:35 PM
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Re: 1000 mile trip uses 40 gal of gas or 286 lbs of coal

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Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
I was thinking about what life would be like if I replaced all our cars with BEV in the future. Like many families, we have several cars in our driveway (I have 4), as well as large garages filled with stuff (boats, classic cars, snow mobiles, whatever) and absolutely no place to plug in one let alone many BEV's. I look around my neighborhood, and that theme plays out a lotÖ..long driveways filled with cars that never end up in a garage. And what about the many apartment or condo dwellers who have no place at all to plug in, often with no garage?

My point, BEV continues to be a limited application solution for most. I donít see how a bit more range and lowered price will change that any time soon.
A couple things have changed in the last 5 years.
  • EV have much greater range meaing they can be charged less often.
  • EVs have greater access to charging stations- meaning like a Gas vehicle you don't need to charge them at home.
  • Rapid charging-reduces the need for home charging in alot of cases.

For the normal person they would charge thier vehicle once a week or whenever it's most convenient.

I am in the market for a premium compact car with an Independent Rear suspension.
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