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post #21 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 03:49 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

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Originally Posted by Andrew L View Post
I am not saying they need to dumb down the brand but what I am saying is they shouldn't offer the SAME EXACT FEATURES. What is the point of Ford offering the SAME features as Lincoln and offering at a 10k discount.

Example:
Self parking is a GREAT example of a feature that should be Lincoln only
The hidden keyless entry keypad should be Lincoln only
Power Running boards on the Navigator should have been exclusive
I could go on with more.

I have no problem with Ford getting some of these features over time but first EVERY Lincoln should get these features and have them for a while before Ford starts getting them.

The only feature Lincoln has that is exclusive right now is the Panoramic sunroof which is only on the MKZ and Lincoln Drive Control which is on the MKZ, MKS, and MKT.

Name me 15 exclusive features on the MKZ that the Fusion doesn't have and tell me if that justifies the price bump same with the MKS and the Taurus same with the MKT and Flex... even worse with the Expedition and Navigator.
You're not going to see a lot of exclusive features considering Ford just started focusing on Lincoln.

Also, Lincoln launched the MKZ with a wide range of packages so they can look and see what people will pay for a Lincoln. It turns out a lot of folks are buying the more expensive models over the base versions.

All of this is subject to change.
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post #22 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 04:13 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

so many interesting posts^ to reply to...
...please assume :grinch:es wherever :wink:


Quote:
Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
When those features exist in the same segment on a Toyota, Nissan, VW, or a Hyundai then the Ford must also be competitive. A Ford cannot be dumbed down in comparison to its competition in order to protect Lincoln. Lincoln must excel to such a level that Ford, and by extension Toyota, Nissan, VW, and Hyundai are not a threat...
EXACTLY, imho-esp: HK, who are the main mfg that's practically specializing in 'cross-tier' confusion.
for now imho, the Ford Brand has NO choice but to compete

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
...If you think the overlap between Ford and Lincoln is too large then imagine the cluster**** that would exist when they try to wedge Mercury in between them. The simple existence of Mercury is no guarantee that Lincoln's move upward will be either more successful nor faster.
for *my* concept of Mercury, that "between" doesn't apply on a marketing level, or even really an engineering level
since
imho
Merc's DNA could work at any almost pricepoint as something OUTSIDE of the "fordish" Ford & Lincoln "brand-arc/column" (I see Lincoln as having primarily a close relationship to all things "fordish" - kind of like the same 'nationality' or complexion/hair-color or speaking the same language(just Lincoln does it fancier/more high class)
whereas
Merc OF COURSE has RED HAIR and is a *bit* of an iconoclast if not quite a rebel (that's too fordish) ...being much more 'international' than the ultra-American Ford & Lincoln

AND

just heard on tvnews:
"...mainstream buyers are more likely to upgrade to a mid-level/premium product AFTER/IF they see there also is a 3rd, higher-level/LUX product offered by a mfg..."

since I firmly believe that ALL multi-billion $$ corporations have access to all the info in the world (assuming they want it),
I'm convinced FoMoCo knew of this way-before today *&* it may have played a part in their decision to hiatus Mercury rather than Lincoln
(among Many other factors of course - not that I agree with them All)


&
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logans Run View Post
...Ford needs to give Lincoln a REAL chance, and not give a lick about profit for the next four or five years...
think we've all heard that Lincoln (like all FoMoCo) is under a PAY-GO rule
but
imho within that is quite a bit of wiggle room between:
"meaningful profits" vs "investment" ...kinda like:
"AAA bonds" vs "venture capital"
to which
I reply the mantra "DIVERSIFY" ...ie both+other(s)

^just trying to say^
from a fan's perspective it may impossible to understand ANYthing about what's going on behind the scenes/$cene$
((which
is darn frustrating!))
((just like trying to keep up with posts while my puter trys to suicide))

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post #23 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 04:32 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew L View Post
...be Lincoln only
The hidden keyless entry keypad should be Lincoln only...

...I have no problem with Ford getting some of these features over time but first EVERY Lincoln should get these features and have them for a while before Ford starts getting them...
I'd LOVE to see the numberpad IN the B-pillar be Lincoln-only!!
&
find another way of offering it on Fords

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post #24 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 04:41 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2 View Post
for *my* concept of Mercury, that "between" doesn't apply on a marketing level, or even really an engineering level
since
imho
Merc's DNA could work at any almost pricepoint as something OUTSIDE of the "fordish" Ford & Lincoln "brand-arc/column" (I see Lincoln as having primarily a close relationship to all things "fordish" - kind of like the same 'nationality' or complexion/hair-color or speaking the same language(just Lincoln does it fancier/more high class)
whereas
Merc OF COURSE has RED HAIR and is a *bit* of an iconoclast if not quite a rebel (that's too fordish) ...being much more 'international' than the ultra-American Ford & Lincoln
In a One Ford world, a world in which just about every manufacturer sells the same cars in most markets what exactly is a "International" car as it applies to Ford/Lincoln/Mercury?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2 View Post
just heard on tvnews:
"...mainstream buyers are more likely to upgrade to a mid-level/premium product AFTER/IF they see there also is a 3rd, higher-level/LUX product offered by a mfg..."
Link? This sound very suspect to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2 View Post
since I firmly believe that ALL multi-billion $$ corporations have access to all the info in the world (assuming they want it),
I'm convinced FoMoCo knew of this way-before today *&* it may have played a part in their decision to hiatus Mercury rather than Lincoln
(among Many other factors of course - not that I agree with them All)
Toyota/Lexus #1 manufacturer in the world with no mid level brand.
VW/Audi/Porsche/Bentley/Lambo/Ducati/Skoda #3 manufacturer in the world with no mid-level brand.
GM #2 (and shrinking) manufacturer in the world has a mid level brand.

Mainstream and premium are meeting in the middle and leaving little to no room for non-specialty mid-level brands to breath. It is much like retail today, you are either Walmart/Target or you're a specialty company with limited reach.
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post #25 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 05:44 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

Ford moving upmarket so fast usually would mean that Lincoln would follow suit but it appears that if anything Ford products seem to encroach on Lincoln products. VW/ Audi has an amazing ability to make a VW Golf based A3 a premium product despite its Golf basis, and similar equipment in many ways.


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post #26 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 05:50 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

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Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
Ford moving upmarket so fast usually would mean that Lincoln would follow suit but it appears that if anything Ford products seem to encroach on Lincoln products. VW/ Audi has an amazing ability to make a VW Golf based A3 a premium product despite its Golf basis, and similar equipment in many ways.
I think that is an excellent example of Audi's prestige buying it some wiggle room at the bottom of their lineup. If the A6 were nothing but a Passat with a new suit then I don't think the A3 gets a pass. This is in large part the reason for my discontent with Lincoln currently not having more distance between themselves and Ford as you move up the line.
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post #27 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 05:56 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

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Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
I think that is an excellent example of Audi's prestige buying it some wiggle room at the bottom of their lineup. If the A6 were nothing but a Passat with a new suit then I don't think the A3 gets a pass. This is in large part the reason for my discontent with Lincoln currently not having more distance between themselves and Ford as you move up the line.
Not only that but also a factor of differentiation that makes product that although they are very similar feel very different. Another example would be the CT200h, and the Toyota Prius which also appeal to a very different customer base, and have a very different feel despite the vehicles not being utterly divergent in specification.


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post #28 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 06:05 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

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Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
Not only that but also a factor of differentiation that makes product that although they are very similar feel very different. Another example would be the CT200h, and the Toyota Prius which also appeal to a very different customer base, and have a very different feel despite the vehicles not being utterly divergent in specification.
It will be enlightening to see if Cadillac with their newfound recognition receives the Audi/Lexus treatment with their new Volt spinoff or if the media remain negative. As for the differentiation of the CT200h and A3, I don't think they are more significant than the MKZ is from the Fusion, yet Lincoln as a brand doesn't have the clout yet to get away with the same.
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post #29 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 06:35 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
In a One Ford world, a world in which just about every manufacturer sells the same cars in most markets what exactly is a "International" car as it applies to Ford/Lincoln/Mercury?
just-imho
it's largely a Style thing
remember Ford's "Bold" theme from the 3-bar-grille years?
I used call the Mondeo's kinetic style "Nigel" vs Fusion's "Bob" style :wink:
Merc would be neither 'sibling', actually a true third entity
((tho there's functional parts too - see last part))


Quote:
Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
Link? This sound very suspect to me.
sorry it was local tvnews either NBC or ABC affiliate & I wasn't fully awake yet



Toyota/Lexus #1 manufacturer in the world with no mid level brand.
Scion is a good example of an outside-the-column strategy
(NOT that Merc is anything like Scion)
VW/Audi/Porsche/Bentley/Lambo/Ducati/Skoda #3 manufacturer in the world with no mid-level brand.
just-imho
VW *is* (at times) a mid-level brand
& afaik Skoda &or SEAT are lower
GM #2 (and shrinking) manufacturer in the world has a mid level brand.
-- it'll be "interesting" Buick's future
-- I'd NEVER use GM as a (good) example

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
...Mainstream and premium are meeting in the middle and leaving little to no room for non-specialty mid-level brands to breath. It is much like retail today, you are either Walmart/Target or you're a specialty company with limited reach.
again
my vision for Merc is not primarily pricepoint-based
more about a 'tailored' Brand of 'discrimination' without going wholeHOG high-priced or more accurately: Lux

probably not the best and a DATED example but
one thought from long ago was
upscaling(Lincolnifying) MAZDAs & its zoomzoom as a basis for Mercurys
sorta foreshadows the "Small Mercs Theorem" as an adjunct to Lincoln
+ of course
since then I've gone heavily into the idea of Mercury being the electrification-hybrid/nextgen-drivetrain specialist ...adding GuineaPig to Merc's Goldilocks/Cinderella roles
((starting to veer off into the Missions' HowTo subject matter...
...like & want to keep this new thread more for the WhyBother side of things
& re- for PTK!))

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post #30 of 115 (permalink) Old 10-28-2013, 07:21 PM
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Re: Mercury to Return Later...yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP1966 View Post
It will be enlightening to see if Cadillac with their newfound recognition receives the Audi/Lexus treatment with their new Volt spinoff or if the media remain negative. As for the differentiation of the CT200h and A3, I don't think they are more significant than the MKZ is from the Fusion, yet Lincoln as a brand doesn't have the clout yet to get away with the same.
GM does not get a media pass in this area but the XTS, Lacrosse, and Impala are so well differentiated in look, and feel amongst many other facets those that review, and the buying public have no choice but to accept that they are utterly divergenet in many ways. If the same was the case with the Fusion , and the MKZ Ford/ Lincoln would receive the same recognition in my opinion. Most of the media has remarked quite simply as I have that the Fusion is so good in many ways that it is far too close to the inherent goodness of the MKZ.

The Impala despite receiving rave reviews has quite simply not affected how the XTS is perceived. Personally I think that Lincoln has to go further than brands like Lexus as far as differentiation is concerned, and my frustration is that because of how risk averse Lincoln management is the cars are simply not as well differentiated as would be optimal.


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