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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 07:09 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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You're talking about the past when you talk about "MSRP in the mid $40's." This thread and everything I proposed is about the future. There's no confusion if you read what I wrote. Again, the Conti (on the ancient CD4) did not (could not) move the needle on luxury. With CD6, Lincoln has a chance to move the needle. Repeat after me; CD6!

Tell me that hand assembly is more precise than robotic assembly and I'll tell you that that is all about image, not necessarily quality. Robots don't get drunk on Friday afternoons. Material quality, yes, assembly quality, no. Hand-stitched leather, really?

If you want to tell me that Lincoln cannot produce a proper luxury sedan on CD6, then you're telling me that the Aviator is an inadequate product.
I guess we are talking in two different directions. My only point was in reference to your remark about Lincoln imitating substance of a $300K sedan. Just can't be done, regardless of platform, if the price point is a tiny fraction of that.

And sure, I would love to see a CD6 based sedan, regardless of how absolutely few they would sell. That's great for customers, just not great for Lincoln and profits.
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 09:37 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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Bentley's sell for $300K based almost purely on image and lure of the ridiculous W12 engine.
The engine is irrelevant, Bentleys sell due to their badge, it announces their wealth to all in view.
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 10:00 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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I guess we are talking in two different directions. My only point was in reference to your remark about Lincoln imitating substance of a $300K sedan. Just can't be done, regardless of platform, if the price point is a tiny fraction of that.

And sure, I would love to see a CD6 based sedan, regardless of how absolutely few they would sell. That's great for customers, just not great for Lincoln and profits.
This is so laughable so I'll quote myself from post #16; "The Continental was a half-assed attempt to approximate Bentley's style but not its substance."

Reading comprehension 101.

Regardless, Lincoln hasn't been allowed to produce a car that punches above its weight class. CD6 presents Lincoln the opportunity should it so chose.

I too would love to see a CD6 based sedan but I see through a different lens. Optimists change the world because they try the impossible. Pessimists are always correct.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 10:14 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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Optimists change the world because they try the impossible. Pessimists are always correct.
Nice motivational speech, seriously, I like it!

That said, what changes the world are people who are able to predict what consumers want, before they know they want it. I'm not aware of any who predicted consumers want what they're already rejecting. I'm sure a few examples exist, but I suspect it's a small percentage. I'm sure GM was plenty optimistic that a small update to 5G Camaro styling would do great for the 6G! I'm sure Lincoln was optimistic the Continental would sell much better than it has, or they never would have built it. I know Ford was optimistic their Edsel division would be a homerun!

Volume sedans are, and always have been, utility vehicles, and crossovers are simply sedans evolved. Ford could go the way of Nokia and Windows Phone OS and keep trying to sell people yesterday's products, or they can focus on building what people want today while trying to predict what they'll want tomorrow before people ask for it. I'll take that approach over head in the sand optimism all day, every day!
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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 06:37 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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This is so laughable so I'll quote myself from post #16; "The Continental was a half-assed attempt to approximate Bentley's style but not its substance."

Reading comprehension 101.

Regardless, Lincoln hasn't been allowed to produce a car that punches above its weight class. CD6 presents Lincoln the opportunity should it so chose.

I too would love to see a CD6 based sedan but I see through a different lens. Optimists change the world because they try the impossible. Pessimists are always correct.
Laughable??? I thought we were just having a discussion, and I thought I was pretty clear that my main point here was to point out how NOBODY can approximate the luxury of a vehicle that costs 5X as much. Simple and obvious point. If that makes you laugh, then have at it.
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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 04:18 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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Laughable??? I thought we were just having a discussion, and I thought I was pretty clear that my main point here was to point out how NOBODY can approximate the luxury of a vehicle that costs 5X as much. Simple and obvious point. If that makes you laugh, then have at it.
Yes, I hope we can still laugh. Laughter is the best medicine (Art Linkletter).

I just happen to disagree. If Lincoln can justifiably sell Navigators at the $100K level, that is not a tiny fraction of $300K. If Lincoln built a proper $100K luxury sedan, people may notice the slight (I think questionable) qualitative difference between hand-built and mass-produced but they will notice the bang for the buck and the equal match-up of drive/ride quality.

If you think that Lincoln cannot pull that off, just admit it. I already know that you think Lincoln shouldn't try.
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 04:33 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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Nice motivational speech, seriously, I like it!

That said, what changes the world are people who are able to predict what consumers want, before they know they want it. I'm not aware of any who predicted consumers want what they're already rejecting. I'm sure a few examples exist, but I suspect it's a small percentage. I'm sure GM was plenty optimistic that a small update to 5G Camaro styling would do great for the 6G! I'm sure Lincoln was optimistic the Continental would sell much better than it has, or they never would have built it. I know Ford was optimistic their Edsel division would be a homerun!

Volume sedans are, and always have been, utility vehicles, and crossovers are simply sedans evolved. Ford could go the way of Nokia and Windows Phone OS and keep trying to sell people yesterday's products, or they can focus on building what people want today while trying to predict what they'll want tomorrow before people ask for it. I'll take that approach over head in the sand optimism all day, every day!
BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi are going the way of Nokia and Windows because they continue to offer sedans alongside their SUVs. Got it!
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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 05:20 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi are going the way of Nokia and Windows because they continue to offer sedans alongside their SUVs. Got it!
If suddenly full size trucks sales fall off Ford is in position to be among the last companies standing because they are the/a segment leader. Honda/Toyota are in position to be among the last companies standing in mainstream sedans because they're the segment leaders. BMW/MB/Audi are in position to be among the last companies standing in premium sedans because they're the segment leaders.

Toyota/Nissan will be the first brands to fall if/when full size truck sales show long terms trends of fading. Ford was at beast 4th in mainstream sedans and Lincoln was a non-player. In Lincoln's case it'd be asinine to use their development dollars in a shrinking segment rather than focus on being great in growing segments. You could make a case that Ford shouldn't be walking away, but if they believe that the segment is on a permanent downward trend I don't blame them for moving early. I'm not saying they're correct, but if they are they're ahead of the game for once.
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-24-2019, 05:54 PM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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Yes, I hope we can still laugh. Laughter is the best medicine (Art Linkletter).

I just happen to disagree. If Lincoln can justifiably sell Navigators at the $100K level, that is not a tiny fraction of $300K. If Lincoln built a proper $100K luxury sedan, people may notice the slight (I think questionable) qualitative difference between hand-built and mass-produced but they will notice the bang for the buck and the equal match-up of drive/ride quality.

If you think that Lincoln cannot pull that off, just admit it. I already know that you think Lincoln shouldn't try.
I am not sure what you are saying here. Of course Lincoln can build a $100K sedan if they choose to. So my turn to laugh. Making it equal to a $300K sedan, nobody can do. Nobody.



Look, a luxury sedan is far easier to build than a truck based SUV that has to to tow so much. What Lincoln clearly seems to know, is that selling it in high enough volumes will not justify the cost to do a one-off like that. What they do know, is that luxury customers will love the new Aviator costing about as much loaded up. And it will almost certainly sell in much larger volumes than a sedan sitting across the showroom.
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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 03-26-2019, 11:05 AM
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Re: A Navigator-based Town Car?

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I am not sure what you are saying here. Of course Lincoln can build a $100K sedan if they choose to. So my turn to laugh. Making it equal to a $300K sedan, nobody can do. Nobody.

Look, a luxury sedan is far easier to build than a truck based SUV that has to to tow so much. What Lincoln clearly seems to know, is that selling it in high enough volumes will not justify the cost to do a one-off like that. What they do know, is that luxury customers will love the new Aviator costing about as much loaded up. And it will almost certainly sell in much larger volumes than a sedan sitting across the showroom.
We both agree that we would like to see a BIG Continental on CD6. We both agree that it's not likely. You however seem to think that a $300K Bentley is three times as good as a $100K Lincoln would be should Ford give Lincoln the green light. I don't agree.

IMO, what buyers are paying for is the Bentley aura, not quality. Is Bentayga really 3 times better than Aviator? A $100K Lincoln Continental sedan on CD6 will not be only one-third as good as a Bentley Flying Spur. I will concede that a CD6 Lincoln might be 90-95% as good in build quality, comfort and ride quality but not merely 33%. If you say that a Bentley can stay out of the maintenance shop 3 times longer than a Lincoln, then it's my turn to laugh out loud.
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