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post #71 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 03:34 AM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

Watching this political discussion, I come to the memories of the first moments of Chavez in power in Venezuela: Populism, protectionism, socialism, division of society, hatred, resentment. 20 years later, the result is visible to everyone and I had to leave my whole life behind and emigrate to Spain, and start from scratch with 53 years.

I think that this thread has to be closed. It is toxic.

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post #72 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 04:30 AM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

The Most Ridiculous Argument Ever Against Free Trade
By Laurence M. Vance

September 26, 2018

In the age of Trump’s protectionism, economic nationalism, and ignorance and incoherence on trade, some conservatives have begun to go beyond legitimate criticisms of government-managed trade agreements and the World Trade Organization (WTO) and attack free trade itself.

The most ridiculous of their arguments against free trade is a classic guilt by association argument: Karl Marx believed in free trade. This is the most ridiculous argument ever against free trade.

Marx said he favored free trade because “it breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point.” But “certainly it would be unfair to tar the bulk of free-traders with Marxism.” Then why do it? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a capitalist? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a libertarian? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in the free market? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a disciple of Adam Smith and David Ricardo? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in free enterprise? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in freedom? Did Marx favor free trade because he was opposed to government intervention in the economy? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in the benefits of competition?

On January 9, 1848, Marx spoke before the Democratic Association of Brussels on the topic of free trade. Here is the full context of the above Marx quote on free trade:

But, generally speaking, the Protective system in these days is conservative, while the Free Trade system works destructively. It breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point. In a word, the Free Trade system hastens the Social Revolution. In this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, I am in favor of Free Trade.

At the end of Marx’s undelivered speech to 1847 Free Trade Congress in Brussels, he said this about free trade:

We are for Free Trade, because by Free Trade all economical laws, with their most astounding contradictions, will act upon a larger scale, upon a greater extent of territory, upon the territory of the whole earth; and because from the uniting of all these contradictions into a single group, where they stand face to face, will result the struggle which will itself eventuate in the emancipation of the proletarians.

According to Frederick Engels, the reason alone that Marx declared in favor of free trade because it was “the economic medium in which the conditions for the inevitable social revolution will be the soonest created.”

How deceitful of protectionists to associate modern free traders with Karl Marx.

It is in fact protectionists who are Marxists.

Conservatives rightly criticize the centrally planned economies of communist countries such as the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea, as well as the socialism and extensive government intervention in the economies of European countries. But when they call for protectionist trade policies to be undertaken by the U.S. government, they are actually calling for Soviet-style central planning by the U.S. government and its economists and bureaucrats.

All forms and levels of protectionism require central planning. Government economists and bureaucrats must determine which industries should be protected, which countries should have their exports restricted, how to erect a particular trade barrier, which items should be subject to tariffs, how much of a tariff to impose, how long the tariff should remain in place, what exemptions should be given, which goods should be subject to import quotas, what the magic number of the quota should be, how often to reevaluate the need for some degree of protection, the course of action to take when targeted countries retaliate, and how many economists and bureaucrats to employ to figure these things.

And of course, all of this presupposes that the government is capable of calculating the “correct” amount of protection on the “right” goods.

Protectionism should be rejected just like wage, price, and rent controls, minimum-wage laws, usury laws, price-gouging laws, and other forms of government central planning.
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post #73 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 05:06 AM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Handler View Post
The Most Ridiculous Argument Ever Against Free Trade
By Laurence M. Vance

September 26, 2018

In the age of Trump’s protectionism, economic nationalism, and ignorance and incoherence on trade, some conservatives have begun to go beyond legitimate criticisms of government-managed trade agreements and the World Trade Organization (WTO) and attack free trade itself.

The most ridiculous of their arguments against free trade is a classic guilt by association argument: Karl Marx believed in free trade. This is the most ridiculous argument ever against free trade.

Marx said he favored free trade because “it breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point.” But “certainly it would be unfair to tar the bulk of free-traders with Marxism.” Then why do it? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a capitalist? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a libertarian? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in the free market? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a disciple of Adam Smith and David Ricardo? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in free enterprise? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in freedom? Did Marx favor free trade because he was opposed to government intervention in the economy? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in the benefits of competition?

On January 9, 1848, Marx spoke before the Democratic Association of Brussels on the topic of free trade. Here is the full context of the above Marx quote on free trade:

But, generally speaking, the Protective system in these days is conservative, while the Free Trade system works destructively. It breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point. In a word, the Free Trade system hastens the Social Revolution. In this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, I am in favor of Free Trade.

At the end of Marx’s undelivered speech to 1847 Free Trade Congress in Brussels, he said this about free trade:

We are for Free Trade, because by Free Trade all economical laws, with their most astounding contradictions, will act upon a larger scale, upon a greater extent of territory, upon the territory of the whole earth; and because from the uniting of all these contradictions into a single group, where they stand face to face, will result the struggle which will itself eventuate in the emancipation of the proletarians.

According to Frederick Engels, the reason alone that Marx declared in favor of free trade because it was “the economic medium in which the conditions for the inevitable social revolution will be the soonest created.”

How deceitful of protectionists to associate modern free traders with Karl Marx.

It is in fact protectionists who are Marxists.

Conservatives rightly criticize the centrally planned economies of communist countries such as the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea, as well as the socialism and extensive government intervention in the economies of European countries. But when they call for protectionist trade policies to be undertaken by the U.S. government, they are actually calling for Soviet-style central planning by the U.S. government and its economists and bureaucrats.

All forms and levels of protectionism require central planning. Government economists and bureaucrats must determine which industries should be protected, which countries should have their exports restricted, how to erect a particular trade barrier, which items should be subject to tariffs, how much of a tariff to impose, how long the tariff should remain in place, what exemptions should be given, which goods should be subject to import quotas, what the magic number of the quota should be, how often to reevaluate the need for some degree of protection, the course of action to take when targeted countries retaliate, and how many economists and bureaucrats to employ to figure these things.

And of course, all of this presupposes that the government is capable of calculating the “correct” amount of protection on the “right” goods.

Protectionism should be rejected just like wage, price, and rent controls, minimum-wage laws, usury laws, price-gouging laws, and other forms of government central planning.









How can I give you a double like for this post?
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post #74 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 10:32 AM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

Criticism means little to Trump, and thank God for that. The man has been talking about the implication of massive amounts of discounted imports due to their global over-capacity for steel/Aluminum into our country, for decades. Our metal import to export ratio is ~4:1, and factories have shut down in the past, and of course displaced thousands of American jobs. But far beyond jobs, which are roaring back for that industry, but what about our freaking national security is in peril. How the effff do some not see that??? So what happens if South Korea or other importing countries, is suddenly at odds with America, and decides to stop all exports to the US? Of course nobody wants more tariffs (taxes), but the main reason should be clear and talked about, not just bash Trump talking points about trade in the media, but that’s all you get, and that’s the only nipple some of you choose to suck on. So let Hacket make excuses about why his profit is down, I am far more concerned about the bigger fish here.

And to Falcon,
You are clearly wrong to compare Trump to Chavez in terms of economic prosperity. One is a complete embarrassment, the other has achieved record prosperity in a short time, and continues to improve.

As for politics in this thread, meh, those complaining most are the biggest contributors. I don’t mind the occasional debate. Far more interesting than cars for sure. If mods lock it, that is fine by me too.
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post #75 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 01:37 PM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

Another justification for my calling that fake news, and in this case, my boss Mr. Hacket ( a known Trump hater) is implicated, is that the whole picture is ignored once again in favor of selective negativity toward Trump. Hey Mr. Hacket, aside from a singled out disclaimer about tariff impact to our bottom line, how about the positive effect from tax benefits you received and will continue to receive, also worth billions. Or how about the de-regulation impact? Or how about the fact that a strong economy from said Trump effect, is helping consumers to buy more Ford products, even as you take away options, not upgrade fast enough and show no plan for the future. Yes, the reason you are doing so well, has much more to do with Trump, than it does your horrible leadership. I shudder to think what our economy would look like with Hillary in office.
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post #76 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 01:58 PM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Handler View Post
The Most Ridiculous Argument Ever Against Free Trade
By Laurence M. Vance

September 26, 2018

In the age of Trump’s protectionism, economic nationalism, and ignorance and incoherence on trade, some conservatives have begun to go beyond legitimate criticisms of government-managed trade agreements and the World Trade Organization (WTO) and attack free trade itself.

The most ridiculous of their arguments against free trade is a classic guilt by association argument: Karl Marx believed in free trade. This is the most ridiculous argument ever against free trade.

Marx said he favored free trade because “it breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point.” But “certainly it would be unfair to tar the bulk of free-traders with Marxism.” Then why do it? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a capitalist? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a libertarian? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in the free market? Did Marx favor free trade because he was a disciple of Adam Smith and David Ricardo? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in free enterprise? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in freedom? Did Marx favor free trade because he was opposed to government intervention in the economy? Did Marx favor free trade because he believed in the benefits of competition?

On January 9, 1848, Marx spoke before the Democratic Association of Brussels on the topic of free trade. Here is the full context of the above Marx quote on free trade:

But, generally speaking, the Protective system in these days is conservative, while the Free Trade system works destructively. It breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point. In a word, the Free Trade system hastens the Social Revolution. In this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, I am in favor of Free Trade.

At the end of Marx’s undelivered speech to 1847 Free Trade Congress in Brussels, he said this about free trade:

We are for Free Trade, because by Free Trade all economical laws, with their most astounding contradictions, will act upon a larger scale, upon a greater extent of territory, upon the territory of the whole earth; and because from the uniting of all these contradictions into a single group, where they stand face to face, will result the struggle which will itself eventuate in the emancipation of the proletarians.

According to Frederick Engels, the reason alone that Marx declared in favor of free trade because it was “the economic medium in which the conditions for the inevitable social revolution will be the soonest created.”

How deceitful of protectionists to associate modern free traders with Karl Marx.

It is in fact protectionists who are Marxists.

Conservatives rightly criticize the centrally planned economies of communist countries such as the Soviet Union, Cuba, Venezuela, and North Korea, as well as the socialism and extensive government intervention in the economies of European countries. But when they call for protectionist trade policies to be undertaken by the U.S. government, they are actually calling for Soviet-style central planning by the U.S. government and its economists and bureaucrats.

All forms and levels of protectionism require central planning. Government economists and bureaucrats must determine which industries should be protected, which countries should have their exports restricted, how to erect a particular trade barrier, which items should be subject to tariffs, how much of a tariff to impose, how long the tariff should remain in place, what exemptions should be given, which goods should be subject to import quotas, what the magic number of the quota should be, how often to reevaluate the need for some degree of protection, the course of action to take when targeted countries retaliate, and how many economists and bureaucrats to employ to figure these things.

And of course, all of this presupposes that the government is capable of calculating the “correct” amount of protection on the “right” goods.

Protectionism should be rejected just like wage, price, and rent controls, minimum-wage laws, usury laws, price-gouging laws, and other forms of government central planning.
Thanks for the article, but I think it is good to see where Mr. Vance stands on many important subjects, and the link below will help to ground you with his beliefs and you can judge for yourself.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/11/...w-of-politics/
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post #77 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-27-2018, 09:48 PM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by falcon lover View Post




How can I give you a double like for this post?
These are some great articles every anti-capitalist dolt needs to read.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richard.../#5bcc02765e58

https://mises.org/library/what-progr...-welfare-looks

https://www.lewrockwell.com/1970/01/...rporate-state/

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2010/04/...a-a-socialist/

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
Thanks for the article, but I think it is good to see where Mr. Vance stands on many important subjects, and the link below will help to ground you with his beliefs and you can judge for yourself.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/11/...w-of-politics/
Yes, I'm familiar with Laurence's views. I've been reading his articles on LRC for quite some time.
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Last edited by The Handler; 09-28-2018 at 04:40 AM.
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post #78 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 12:13 AM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

I find it really interesting how people who call other people "snowflakes" are the first to get so upset about things.

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post #79 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 06:47 AM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
Another justification for my calling that fake news, and in this case, my boss Mr. Hacket ( a known Trump hater) is implicated, is that the whole picture is ignored once again in favor of selective negativity toward Trump. Hey Mr. Hacket, aside from a singled out disclaimer about tariff impact to our bottom line, how about the positive effect from tax benefits you received and will continue to receive, also worth billions. Or how about the de-regulation impact? Or how about the fact that a strong economy from said Trump effect, is helping consumers to buy more Ford products, even as you take away options, not upgrade fast enough and show no plan for the future. Yes, the reason you are doing so well, has much more to do with Trump, than it does your horrible leadership. I shudder to think what our economy would look like with Hillary in office.
I just read an article about how we are winning the tariff war. The Chinese stock market is down 24% while we are setting new highs. The article went on to say that the stimulus from our current policies is tenfold of what the tariffs cost. Seems to me that the Chinese are the protectionists! I really need to take the time to learn how to post links here.
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post #80 of 153 (permalink) Old 09-28-2018, 08:31 AM
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Re: Spied! Is the 2020 Lincoln MKZ?

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Originally Posted by 70 Stang View Post
I just read an article about how we are winning the tariff war. The Chinese stock market is down 24% while we are setting new highs. The article went on to say that the stimulus from our current policies is tenfold of what the tariffs cost. Seems to me that the Chinese are the protectionists! I really need to take the time to learn how to post links here.
Indeed the stimulus is dramatic, and we are winning what I call a trade skirmish (hardly a war), and yet these are more talking points that will be selectively ignored by any media that chooses to instead cast a negative view on this admin.

This is an intensely political environment we are in today, people should remember that as they listen to the POV from career politicians or academics who have never worked in the private sector.
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