Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV - Page 4 - Ford Inside News Community
 34Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-30-2018, 10:46 AM
Ford Falcon Ute
 
falcon lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,994
Send a message via MSN to falcon lover
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

There is a rumor about the name of the Fordís EV performance crossover: Evos
falcon lover is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-30-2018, 12:51 PM
Focus RS WRC
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 515
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
I am still wondering what will happen to the market when it is flooded with BEV options. Specifically price. Will BEV's start sitting on lots with huge discounts because consumers are not adapting nearly fast enough, combined with evolving hybrid benefits. I think that will be the norm. At least in the immediate future. I am actually to the point of not caring what happens to Tesla, and if we could shut the blow hard up (Musk), I might actually be grateful.
No way anyone who drove an electric and an ICE back to back would pick the ICE, unless it was sold at a considerable discount. I expect that to be the case, which the opposite of what you're predicting. BEVs will cause ICE cars to drop precipitously in price as legacy manufacturers attempt to dismantle their legacy commitments with some semblance of order.

Last edited by mooseman; 06-30-2018 at 01:10 PM.
mooseman is online now  
post #33 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-30-2018, 01:10 PM
Focus RS WRC
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 515
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
The S with the specs to go that quick, costs well over $100k.

Gee, I don't know, maybe Ford has some crazy idea to make their first new BEV affordable and......something Tesla has never heard of.....profit.
Road and Track tested original P85+ back in 2013 did 0-60 in 4s and started as about $96k, and stickered out at $112k and had 265mi of range. The Model P3D that I can order today (got my invite finally) does 0-60 in a claimed 3.5sec (but likely, probably around the low 3s) would sticker out with the 20" tire package at $69k with a 310 range on a smaller battery than the old P85+ has/had.


That is a massive decrease in cost. Also, I'd wager Tesla sells more $35k SR Model 3s by the end of 2019 than Ford will have sold EVs since they began selling EVs....at a very good margin. Ford is trailing badly in BEVs, and the Evos/Mach 1, whatever it will be called, which has yet to even be shown to even entice a potential Tesla buyer to wait, will make a minimal impact on the marketplace. Ford has too much legacy baggage to move to EVs too quickly. They'd have to shutter half their NA operations to be right sized for BEV. The industry has been upended by Tesla. How it shakes out depends on how well each company is steered through the transition. Hopefully the file cabinet salesman knows what he is doing.
mooseman is online now  
 
post #34 of 63 (permalink) Old 06-30-2018, 06:38 PM
Ford Explorer
 
wingsnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,808
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Road and Track tested original P85+ back in 2013 did 0-60 in 4s and started as about $96k, and stickered out at $112k and had 265mi of range. The Model P3D that I can order today (got my invite finally) does 0-60 in a claimed 3.5sec (but likely, probably around the low 3s) would sticker out with the 20" tire package at $69k with a 310 range on a smaller battery than the old P85+ has/had.


That is a massive decrease in cost. Also, I'd wager Tesla sells more $35k SR Model 3s by the end of 2019 than Ford will have sold EVs since they began selling EVs....at a very good margin. Ford is trailing badly in BEVs, and the Evos/Mach 1, whatever it will be called, which has yet to even be shown to even entice a potential Tesla buyer to wait, will make a minimal impact on the marketplace. Ford has too much legacy baggage to move to EVs too quickly. They'd have to shutter half their NA operations to be right sized for BEV. The industry has been upended by Tesla. How it shakes out depends on how well each company is steered through the transition. Hopefully the file cabinet salesman knows what he is doing.
$70K huh.

Hmmm.

Still, not only about 0-60 and certainly not only about sales volume.

Profit is the name of the game.
Care to bet who profits first? I bet you won't.
wingsnut is online now  
post #35 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-01-2018, 01:05 AM
Focus RS WRC
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 866
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

If profit is the name of the game, why is Ford's stockholder value in the tank? Ford is a very profitable company. However, management's latest moves (the cabinetmaker, for example) are driven by the downward valuation of the company's shareholder value.

Ford is fighting for its future and the stakes are high. For decades, Ford has let its public image as an auto industry leader decline to the point that it is now reacting to - and trying to catch up with - a startup competitor that has no manufacturing history and is making zero profits. That should be a profoundly uncomfortable fact.
glyphics is offline  
post #36 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-01-2018, 02:33 AM
Ford Explorer
 
wingsnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,808
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Profit is never a bad thing.
What I was clearly talking about was profitable BEV's.
wingsnut is online now  
post #37 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-01-2018, 03:12 AM
Focus RS WRC
 
jpd80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 511
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by glyphics View Post
If profit is the name of the game, why is Ford's stockholder value in the tank? Ford is a very profitable company. However, management's latest moves (the cabinetmaker, for example) are driven by the downward valuation of the company's shareholder value.
There is a difference between a profitable company like Ford and one that gives high returns to investors.
This is what the crap is really abourt - the inability to speculate on Ford's future product directions.





Quote:
Ford is fighting for its future and the stakes are high. For decades, Ford has let its public image as an auto industry leader decline to the point that it is now reacting to - and trying to catch up with - a startup competitor that has no manufacturing history and is making zero profits. That should be a profoundly uncomfortable fact.
It's a measured response to Wall Street more than directly competing with Tesla, Ford's stock holders
have very little say in the decision of Ford's business decisions and that's what really gets under the skin
of Wall Street analysts and why Ford's stock value is so poor compared with actual profits earned.

Ford will start switching to BEVs, after its customers are used to hybrids and PHEVs
so there's a lot of room to move in before any mass migration to BEVs..

Last edited by jpd80; 07-01-2018 at 03:14 AM.
jpd80 is offline  
post #38 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-01-2018, 03:55 AM
Ford Explorer
 
wingsnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,808
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpd80 View Post
There is a difference between a profitable company like Ford and one that gives high returns to investors.
This is what the crap is really abourt - the inability to speculate on Ford's future product directions.





It's a measured response to Wall Street more than directly competing with Tesla, Ford's stock holders
have very little say in the decision of Ford's business decisions and that's what really gets under the skin
of Wall Street analysts and why Ford's stock value is so poor compared with actual profits earned.

Ford will start switching to BEVs, after its customers are used to hybrids and PHEVs
so there's a lot of room to move in before any mass migration to BEVs..
Just a reminder, that Ford has many years of experience with all the above, far more than most, as it works toward perpetuating it's electrification cadence of products, which includes 7 BEV's by 2022.
wingsnut is online now  
post #39 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-01-2018, 09:37 AM
Focus RS WRC
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 515
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingsnut View Post
$70K huh.

Hmmm.

Still, not only about 0-60 and certainly not only about sales volume.

Profit is the name of the game.
Care to bet who profits first? I bet you won't.
Margin is the name of the game. OTBE (other things being equal) the only thing profit shows about a company is that it is no longer expanding. You turn a profit when expansion no longer brings a reasonable return on investment. Margin, OTOH, is very important at it provides the structural information about whether a company will be profitable once capex ends. A Model S currently has a 25% margin, which trounces about everyone, and is targeted at 28% later this year, IIRC.

Model 3 obviously has much bigger issues. If Tesla was just about the Model S, they'd be golden, but they are making capital expenditures to grow quickly. They want to grab as much market and mind share as possible before legacy manufacturers get in the fray. They have to strike while they have the advantage. If they wait and do things the way of the old legacy manufacturers, no doubt it would result in a better end product, but they would lose their advantage. They have to operate this way if they stand a chance of surviving. Unfortunately at times they look like a monkey humping a football.
glyphics likes this.
mooseman is online now  
post #40 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-01-2018, 11:08 AM
Ford Explorer
 
wingsnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,808
Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseman View Post
Margin is the name of the game. OTBE (other things being equal) the only thing profit shows about a company is that it is no longer expanding. You turn a profit when expansion no longer brings a reasonable return on investment. Margin, OTOH, is very important at it provides the structural information about whether a company will be profitable once capex ends. A Model S currently has a 25% margin, which trounces about everyone, and is targeted at 28% later this year, IIRC.

Model 3 obviously has much bigger issues. If Tesla was just about the Model S, they'd be golden, but they are making capital expenditures to grow quickly. They want to grab as much market and mind share as possible before legacy manufacturers get in the fray. They have to strike while they have the advantage. If they wait and do things the way of the old legacy manufacturers, no doubt it would result in a better end product, but they would lose their advantage. They have to operate this way if they stand a chance of surviving. Unfortunately at times they look like a monkey humping a football.
No need to explain the very simplistic margin formula to me, I am quite well versed in it. Net profit, to be a bit more specific, is what is missing from Tesla and clearly what I was referring to, and clearly what you skirted around when you started beating your chest about volumes. Would you care to continue that discussion? And yes, Musk is desperate to overcome considerable problems, problems typical of rapid expansion, especially for newbie companies. Problems btw, that Ford is quite well versed in. But forget Ford, it is that same industry that will trounce Tesla with what is quite simplistic technology, and certainly manufacturing, in BEV production.

Last edited by wingsnut; 07-01-2018 at 11:12 AM.
wingsnut is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Inside News Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome