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post #51 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-02-2018, 09:35 PM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

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Range is relative. It all depends on the use of the vehicle that dictates how a long trip over 300 miles may impact the drive.

For example, with 90% of Americans commuting to work daily, with a round trip of less than 50 miles, a 200 or 300 mile EV is the best replacement vehicle. Especially with the 75% reduction in fuel costs, or about the equivalent of 4 gallons(about $20 in electricity) to travel 320 miles. Compared with the $60 to travel the same distance in an ICE vehicle. That's a $40 savings weekly on fuel costs or over $2,000 annually in savings on fuel alone. The fuel savings along could just about pay for the monthly lease of the EV. Then deduct the maintenance savings over 3 - 5 - 7 years of ownership and the EV can actually pay for itself in savings.

Now for those that travel over 300 miles on a regular basis, nothing much changes, because today, most have a smaller car as a daily commuter and a larger vehicle/SUV/Pick-up for longer trips. They would just keep the larger vehicle for longer trips, and replace the smaller daily commuter car/cuv with an EV and benefit from the fuel/maintenance savings, along with better drive-ability. Then there are those with the 300+ mile Tesla today that can charge at a Supercharger while having lunch, dinner or resting for the night before starting out in the morning. Driving an EV is a smarter drive than with an ICE vehicle, where the vehicle knows where it needs to charge and what route to take to makes sure it get there can based on the route/destination. The only way this gets messed up is if the human decides he/she knows better and tries to outthink technology...then it's on them. Thousands of people do 300+ mile trips every day in EVs.

However, those who only have the one large SUV/Pick-up, will just keep driving that and pay higher fuel prices, higher maintenance fees, along with annual emissions testing fees. But Ford is to offer a hybrid for that demographic to lower those costs. This is only until the larger vehicle transition to EV which has to happen.

So the only way a person could be 'concerned' about a 300 mile trip in an EV, would be if they just don't know enough about EVs in the first place...and for that consumer, an ICE vehicle is their best option.
So basically BEVs are only good as commuter vehicles at this point in time. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Tesla......I think they will make all cars better.......whether they make it long term or not. I can't afford to buy a $70,000 commuter car plus something else that is capable of taking a trip......and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. I'm sure BEVs are the future, but that's still at least a decade away. It's already been a decade since the first Tesla hit the street, and it will be another ten years before they can make an "everything" vehicle.......and I can't wait. Understanding an EV certainly isn't rocket science.........I took my dad to look at a Model S back when the car show was in town......thinking it would be perfect for someone retired.......but in a few days he's heading to Islamorada, Florida.......so that wouldn't work.

I hope you enjoy your Model 3 when it gets here.......cant wait to see the pics and read your reviews.
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post #52 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-02-2018, 10:08 PM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

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So basically BEVs are only good as commuter vehicles at this point in time. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Tesla......I think they will make all cars better.......whether they make it long term or not. I can't afford to buy a $70,000 commuter car plus something else that is capable of taking a trip......and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this. I'm sure BEVs are the future, but that's still at least a decade away. It's already been a decade since the first Tesla hit the street, and it will be another ten years before they can make an "everything" vehicle.......and I can't wait. Understanding an EV certainly isn't rocket science.........I took my dad to look at a Model S back when the car show was in town......thinking it would be perfect for someone retired.......but in a few days he's heading to Islamorada, Florida.......so that wouldn't work.

I hope you enjoy your Model 3 when it gets here.......cant wait to see the pics and read your reviews.
BEVs are good for much more than a commuter vehicle today, it's just some people are more challenged with charging along the route, at the same time points as an ICE vehicle than others. Understanding that it takes about 5 hours to travel 300 miles on freeways. At that point 'most' people will be ready for a break/meal or stay overnight, and this is with an ICE or BEV. The only difference is that with the BEV, the EV is charged while eating or at the hotel while sleeping. And ready to go the next morning. Same as going to a gas station and refueling the ICE car, ,and then eating or staying over at a hotel. All the major hotels have EV charging, along with many quick chargers along various routes.

It's just education that helps many to understand how a BEV actually works. But it does take a while, since early BEV adopters with over 200 miles of range, still become obsessed with looking for a charging station, when their round trip is less than 50 miles. Mostly it's just habit, and the rest may just be for attention, so others can see them charging their BEV.

And a 200+ mile BEV costs less than $40k. The benefit there is the ability to take about $2,000 that would be used to buy gas, can go toward paying the lease on the BEV. , and that $2,000 savings increases as gas prices increase. This is the math that BEV owners and automakers have already worked out. Ford shared this data when launching the Focus Electric, but when switching to a PHEV focus, they stopped talking about the BEV advantages over ICE, since ICE was their bread and butter and they were not ready to launch more BEVs.

Also, there are many other BEVs to choose from, Tesla is not the only manufacturer....but just offers some of the best product so far at a lower price. BTW...the Model 3 is dropping to $28k next year with production at 10k weekly.
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post #53 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-03-2018, 08:18 AM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin View Post
BEVs are good for much more than a commuter vehicle today, it's just some people are more challenged with charging along the route, at the same time points as an ICE vehicle than others. Understanding that it takes about 5 hours to travel 300 miles on freeways. At that point 'most' people will be ready for a break/meal or stay overnight, and this is with an ICE or BEV. The only difference is that with the BEV, the EV is charged while eating or at the hotel while sleeping. And ready to go the next morning. Same as going to a gas station and refueling the ICE car, ,and then eating or staying over at a hotel. All the major hotels have EV charging, along with many quick chargers along various routes.

It's just education that helps many to understand how a BEV actually works. But it does take a while, since early BEV adopters with over 200 miles of range, still become obsessed with looking for a charging station, when their round trip is less than 50 miles. Mostly it's just habit, and the rest may just be for attention, so others can see them charging their BEV.

And a 200+ mile BEV costs less than $40k. The benefit there is the ability to take about $2,000 that would be used to buy gas, can go toward paying the lease on the BEV. , and that $2,000 savings increases as gas prices increase. This is the math that BEV owners and automakers have already worked out. Ford shared this data when launching the Focus Electric, but when switching to a PHEV focus, they stopped talking about the BEV advantages over ICE, since ICE was their bread and butter and they were not ready to launch more BEVs.

Also, there are many other BEVs to choose from, Tesla is not the only manufacturer....but just offers some of the best product so far at a lower price. BTW...the Model 3 is dropping to $28k next year with production at 10k weekly.

The current range of EVs and charging stations net only allows electric vehicles to be useful for city use or very short and planned trips. The rest is a lie.
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post #54 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-03-2018, 12:08 PM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin View Post
BEVs are good for much more than a commuter vehicle today, it's just some people are more challenged with charging along the route, at the same time points as an ICE vehicle than others. Understanding that it takes about 5 hours to travel 300 miles on freeways. At that point 'most' people will be ready for a break/meal or stay overnight, and this is with an ICE or BEV. The only difference is that with the BEV, the EV is charged while eating or at the hotel while sleeping. And ready to go the next morning. Same as going to a gas station and refueling the ICE car, ,and then eating or staying over at a hotel. All the major hotels have EV charging, along with many quick chargers along various routes.

It's just education that helps many to understand how a BEV actually works. But it does take a while, since early BEV adopters with over 200 miles of range, still become obsessed with looking for a charging station, when their round trip is less than 50 miles. Mostly it's just habit, and the rest may just be for attention, so others can see them charging their BEV.

...

Also, there are many other BEVs to choose from, Tesla is not the only manufacturer....but just offers some of the best product so far at a lower price. BTW...the Model 3 is dropping to $28k next year with production at 10k weekly.
Have you ever been on a road trip? Usually you stop, get food and eat in the car, only occasionally stopping to sit down for a meal (that's usually only at night when you're stopping to sleep anyway). An EV having to charge for 30 mins eliminates that quick stop and go, meaning more time traveling.

Not only that, but I don't know where you live, but most hotels do NOT have charging capabilities yet. Some brand new ones maybe, but you have to take a much less efficient/longer route just to route through charging stations, again, meaning MORE time.

So no, it's nothing like stopping at a gas station that takes 5 minutes.

Also, you're delusional if you think Tesla is going to drop the price to $28K just because.
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post #55 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-11-2018, 08:33 PM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

https://www.carscoops.com/2018/07/fo...-not-exciting/

Ford Electrification Boss Calls The Focus Electric A Compliance Car That’s “Not Too Exciting”

BY MICHAEL GAUTHIER | POSTED ONJULY 9, 2018


If you forgot that Ford makes the Focus Electric, you’re probably not alone.
While the model has been on sale for years, it never caught on with consumers and data shows the company has only sold 501 units in the United States through June. To put that number into perspective, Chevrolet managed to sell 1,161 Bolts last month alone.

There are a number of reasons why the Focus Electric isn’t flying off dealer lots and part of it is the car’s limited range. Thanks to a recent update, the model has an EPA-estimated driving range of 115 miles (185 km). That’s a big jump from the 76 mile (122 km) range on 2016 models, but it pales in comparison to newer electric vehicles such as the Bolt, Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3.

Despite being at a major competitive disadvantage, the Focus Electric starts at $29,120. That’s $870 less than the Leaf, but that model has a range of 151 miles (243 km).

Given the dismal sales figures, Ford has finally admitted the obvious. In a recent interview with Engadget, the company’s global director of electrification, Ted Cannis, seemingly referred to the model as a compliance car. That’s not exactly high praise, but Cannis said “there’s nothing wrong with [the] Ford Focus Electric” and stated it is “executed well.” However, he admitted it’s “not too exciting.”

That’s a bit of an understatement and Ford’s efforts to entice buyers have been somewhat laughable. Earlier this year, the company announced the 2018 Focus Electric would be offered in Outrageous Green Metallic which was described as a “unique shade, symbolizing modern renewal and a reconnection with nature.” Unsurprisingly, a new paint shade hasn’t caused a rash of Model 3 cancellations.

While the Focus Electric turned out to be a dud, the company has high hopes for the future. Cannis says the company’s upcoming EVs will be “awesome” and far more exciting than the Focus Electric.
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post #56 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-13-2018, 09:37 AM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

EV Batteries of the Future Hit the Track

Brian Eckhouse
Photo credit: BLOOMBERG

The FIA Formula E racing series, pitting electricity-powered cars against each other, will end its season in Brooklyn this weekend.

The race will also serve as a retirement party for the initial generation of E-racing vehicles.

Starting next season, drivers will use sleek open-cockpit cars powered by much stronger batteries. The new vehicles, which bear a mild resemblance to the Batmobile, are capable of delivering a maximum power of 250 kilowatts (equivalent to roughly 335 HP) and reaching speeds of 174 miles per hour (280 km/h).

The improved battery means drivers will no longer have to swap cars midrace.

“That’s a big, big step,” said Nico Rosberg, a retired Formula 1 driver who’s now an investor in Formula E. “Battery performance is finally at a necessary level.”

Automakers have long used racing to nurture new consumer technology, and the Formula E series is no different. While battery-powered vehicles account for just 1.2 percent of auto sales worldwide, Bloomberg NEF predicts sales will jump almost tenfold by 2025 to about 11 million vehicles. To fuel that growth, manufacturers are going to have to convince consumers that battery-powered vehicles are just as reliable as the gasoline-powered cars they’d be replacing.

Read more....http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcsi.d...-180719884.jpg
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post #57 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-13-2018, 09:46 AM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

It seems the next gen FIA Formula E racing series is a bit behind the battery tech and power that Tesla is offering today...but still race ready.

Tesla Model S Electric GT car ready to race
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...mage=100656723

"The race car is called the EPCS V2.3 Tesla S P100DL, and thanks to an uprated powertrain and less weight is able to reach 62 mph in just 2.1 seconds and top out at 155 mph. In comparison, a regular Model S P100D with Ludicrous mode does 0-60 mph in about 2.5 seconds. According to Electric GT, the all-wheel-drive race car is packing as much as 778 horsepower and 733 pound-feet of torque."
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post #58 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 12:44 PM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

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post #59 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-19-2018, 03:25 PM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

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post #60 of 63 (permalink) Old 07-20-2018, 01:41 AM
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Re: Ford says battery tech still too immature for performance EV

Regarding the origin article of this thread, hybrids are actually a huge part of the performance story for many Fords arriving post 2020, just like EcoBoost. Ford is taking Hybrid performance from expensive niche luxury tech to higher volume core products with even better performance and reliability. Their Hybrid business is absolutely brilliant, I don't see anything else quite like it on the horizon from others but we'll see.

As for their BEVs...Ford isn't that enthusiastic bout them until Solid State Batteries make them cheaper and more reliable, but Mach1 is very much intended to be a well balanced and faster than average vehicle like all Fords. I think Farley got a little carried away with the Mach1 rebranding (originally know as C-EV inside Ford) but they are taking a page from Elon Musk's playbook to drum up investor excitement. Farley gets a little clumsy when they are under pressure and this is one of those things.

Ford's contribution to NG Li-ion is to make the battery components modular so they can swap out parts of the batteries and not the entire sled which effectively totals the car. Right now Ford's battery supplier is LG Chem out of Holland Michigan. Ford is working exclusively with LG Chem on solid state batteries but I think it's safe to assume they won't be the first to have them in their products.

There's no getting around that Ford is going to be very absent from the BEV market for nearly 3 years and that's going to get annoying to investors so I hope they at least show off the Mach1 sooner than later. Mach 1 is arriving late 2021 but Ford's huge Hybrid rollout will be happening in the interim.

My advice is that if you're waiting on a Ford Tesla...it will come eventually but FAR later than you hoped..but it's not like we won't have smart transitional products...many of which may have no equal. Ford is staying out of the early BEV market for very specific reasons, they want to make it right and we should trust them to do so, they certainly can't afford to get it wrong. Ford is not intentionally or unintentionally missing the mark, they know what it is and how long it will take to get there. And by the time they do get here, you will have forgotten that time you criticized Ford's absence. I think Ford deserves credit for not doing the obvious thing all the time, otherwise this would be a pretty boring company with nothing to contribute. The BEV market still needs to take a major leap from enthusiastic early adopters to mainstream volume products which is Ford's customer. That's a bigger challenge than just making the car affordable, you have to satisfy a customer that wasn't already convinced and committed to the lifestyle in the first place.
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Last edited by Assimilator; 07-20-2018 at 02:28 AM.
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