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  Topic Review (Newest First)
05-25-2018 08:50 PM
2b2
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

post-edit: looking at these numbers, and WITH hindsight; IF instead of the imho corporate-aimlessness of 2003-2010;
think Mercury could've survived IF they'd used hybrids to supplement their pre-3.7/3.5EB[2009my] antiquated drivetrains
which
would've put Merc in perfect-position for the Recession...
...looking up my old [newspaper-prediction] from the Mission, circa 2009?
original Link lost in forum changes/re-organizations...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2 View Post
my main engineering objective for Mercury has been electrification for LONG time:


now returning you to your regularly scheduled post...


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2 View Post
...Super job with ALL those numbers, @Andrew L - if I was more awake my head would hurt
+ I sooooo want to play with them, esp put D3 sedans side-by-side
then Cuv[s] then D4; And...
IdunnoWhat with the models with gapyears like Taurus n Conti...
gave it a shot & added the other D3/4 cuvs - didn't change Totals at Right or Bottom
...aww shoot, forgot the StyleFree
...UPdated, via Carsalesbase.com


old
05-25-2018 09:03 AM
Andrew L
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmc523 View Post
The rest of the industry is up in crossovers.

Ford's are flat or down because it has some of the oldest products on the market.

Escape - 2013
Edge - 2015 (yes, this is new), refresh arriving in the next few months
Explorer - 2011
Expedition - 2018 (obviously new)

While the current Explorer did debut in 2011 the platform is much older than that sadly.
05-24-2018 05:48 PM
rmc523
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin View Post
Nice job with the list!

What this shows is the natural progression as more vehicle 'types' have become available. Initially there were only sedans as passenger cars, then wagons were added that shared consumers with sedans. SUVs shared more of the 'car' consumer base. Then the more car like CUVs/Crossovers came along and shared even more of the 'car' consumer base.

This sharing of the SAME CONSUMER BASE requires the initial 'car' consumer volume to be reduced to allow for crossover and SUV sales.

But that shift in consumer choice moves around a bit based on different variables. The shift from cars to higher margin SUVs swung back sharply to cars with the rise in gas prices. Automakers trying to hold on to some of that higher margin offered the crossover, which is just the car with a higher ride height, but still at a higher margins, along with similar fuel economy as the car.

Now today as gas prices are creeping up again, crossover/SUV sales are beginning to flatten out. Just looking at Ford, SUV/Crossover sales were down -4.6% for April and -3.6% for the year. Just for an apples to apples comparison, in April the compact Escape was down -16.6% and -13% for the year, while the compact Focus at was down -1.5% and -3.7% for the year. Looking at other compact and midsize sedans, the new models are in a more positive position than the CUV/SUV model sales based on manufacturer. Which helps to explain why the old Fusion offers the one of the worst sales performances in the segment.

It is the higher margins Ford is reaching for with crossovers/cars with higher seating position and lower fuel economy, but consumers are not obligated to fall in line with that plan. As Ford shifts to more expensive everything in each segment by calling them CUV/SUVs, the rest of the industry is renewing and adding more options in the lower priced, more efficient, better driving dynamics, easier to drive, car segments. With EVs just emphasizing the benefits of the car body style.

As gas prices continue to rise, we will see if the trend of declining CUV/SUV sales continue, along with rising sales of the NEW sedans from other manufacturers.
The rest of the industry is up in crossovers.

Ford's are flat or down because it has some of the oldest products on the market.

Escape - 2013
Edge - 2015 (yes, this is new), refresh arriving in the next few months
Explorer - 2011
Expedition - 2018 (obviously new)
05-24-2018 06:57 AM
jpd80
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

It gets me that Ford went to all that effort to revive EUCD and deliver CD4 but kept a lot
of the in built limitations - I mean doing more with a RWD platform like Falcon/Territory
would have yielded Ford their very own multi function RWD AWD architecture years ago.


I find the great divide on C2=+=CD6 interesting, lots of cool stuff possible.
05-23-2018 10:32 PM
wingsnut
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

The progression has probably more to do with more competition, than type.
05-23-2018 10:25 PM
AM222
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloggin View Post
As gas prices continue to rise, we will see if the trend of declining CUV/SUV sales continue, along with rising sales of the NEW sedans from other manufacturers.
Perhaps this is the reason Toyota hasn't abandoned the sedan segment in the US.
The Camry and Corolla will probably stick around for a while... they're even building the next Corolla sedan in the US.
Toyota Preparing For Next Corolla: $170M Investment, 400 New Jobs
"Toyota’s Mississippi Plant Investments in Full Bloom"
https://www.motor1.com/news/240662/t...nt-investment/
05-23-2018 06:44 PM
Bloggin
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

Nice job with the list!

What this shows is the natural progression as more vehicle 'types' have become available. Initially there were only sedans as passenger cars, then wagons were added that shared consumers with sedans. SUVs shared more of the 'car' consumer base. Then the more car like CUVs/Crossovers came along and shared even more of the 'car' consumer base.

This sharing of the SAME CONSUMER BASE requires the initial 'car' consumer volume to be reduced to allow for crossover and SUV sales.

But that shift in consumer choice moves around a bit based on different variables. The shift from cars to higher margin SUVs swung back sharply to cars with the rise in gas prices. Automakers trying to hold on to some of that higher margin offered the crossover, which is just the car with a higher ride height, but still at a higher margins, along with similar fuel economy as the car.

Now today as gas prices are creeping up again, crossover/SUV sales are beginning to flatten out. Just looking at Ford, SUV/Crossover sales were down -4.6% for April and -3.6% for the year. Just for an apples to apples comparison, in April the compact Escape was down -16.6% and -13% for the year, while the compact Focus at was down -1.5% and -3.7% for the year. Looking at other compact and midsize sedans, the new models are in a more positive position than the CUV/SUV model sales based on manufacturer. Which helps to explain why the old Fusion offers the one of the worst sales performances in the segment.

It is the higher margins Ford is reaching for with crossovers/cars with higher seating position and lower fuel economy, but consumers are not obligated to fall in line with that plan. As Ford shifts to more expensive everything in each segment by calling them CUV/SUVs, the rest of the industry is renewing and adding more options in the lower priced, more efficient, better driving dynamics, easier to drive, car segments. With EVs just emphasizing the benefits of the car body style.

As gas prices continue to rise, we will see if the trend of declining CUV/SUV sales continue, along with rising sales of the NEW sedans from other manufacturers.
05-23-2018 05:01 PM
rmc523
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2 View Post
as pleasurable as seeing those zerØs may-or-may-not be, what about inserting either an Averaging/trending formula or just "n/a"
?
Well, I set the charts up once a year so that I don't have to go through and edit what they reference every month for new numbers (takes forever because I have to edit each field for each item I want to chart). With a blank field, it doesn't matter, it'll just ignore that value. But where they get screwed up is the quarterly setup with Ford still reporting monthly.

So take Q2 for example - we've only had April in Q2 numbers. GM's numbers are at 0 because I have no info, which I can just leave those blank and it would ignore them. I built the Q# numbers to add the 3 previous columns/months in the Ford part since Ford doesn't report quarterly, I have to add them to get quarterly numbers to compare, so right now, Q2 only has ~1/3 of the numbers with only April in, which throws the line charts off (since I already built in the references for the year). Before it was fine because you'd have tallies for both companies for the month. Now you have one but not the other.

Here's the old setup:


And the new setup:
05-23-2018 04:16 PM
2b2
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmc523 View Post
It took me hours to change it all up to quarterly.

I kept the monthly version though in case they decide to change back

Perhaps more annoyingly is that since Ford still reports monthly, I'm putting the monthly numbers in, and it adjusts Ford's numbers on the charts, but not the GM numbers (which sit at 0)
as pleasurable as seeing those zerØs may-or-may-not be, what about inserting either an Averaging/trending formula or just "n/a"
?
05-23-2018 04:10 PM
rmc523
Re: A look at Ford Midsize and Fullsize sedans from 1985 to 2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew L View Post
Yea I hear you I am upset GM has gone to quarterly cause it messes up all my charts I have too.
It took me hours to change it all up to quarterly.

I kept the monthly version though in case they decide to change back

Perhaps more annoyingly is that since Ford still reports monthly, I'm putting the monthly numbers in, and it adjusts Ford's numbers on the charts, but not the GM numbers (which sit at 0)
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