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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-20-2018 12:24 AM
Assimilator
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

I think there is some sentimentality for Lincoln at Ford, it's has long been a problem child and I doubt there has ever been a convincing business case for continued investment besides the simple desire to keep it going. Fields tried to rescue it and set it on the right path again since he is from that Ford culture that loves it, but we also know he wasn't prone to making the best decisions.

Ford is risk averse, but I also don't think Lincoln will necessarily reward a bottomless pit of money to create new products. So I don't think Ford is doing anything wrong with Lincoln, they are doing what's possible.

I still think Lincolns are better than ever, but so is everything else.
09-19-2018 11:58 PM
The Handler
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehaase View Post
Going back to the 1940's, Ford has lost a lot of money with Lincoln when it did invest a lot in it. The 1958 to 1960 Lincolns were big money losers. The 1961 to 1969 Lincoln Continental was only marginally profitable. The LTD based Lincolns of the 1970's through 1990's were very profitable. Lincoln only is profitable with Ford derivatives.
Lincoln fell by the wayside after Edsel's death. Nobody has truly cared about it since. That's why the brand has such a muddled identity.

Cadillac and Lincoln cashed in on the faux luxury era, and they're now having to pay the piper.
09-19-2018 09:40 PM
ehaase
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

Going back to the 1940's, Ford has lost a lot of money with Lincoln when it did invest a lot in it. The 1958 to 1960 Lincolns were big money losers. The 1961 to 1969 Lincoln Continental was only marginally profitable. The LTD based Lincolns of the 1970's through 1990's were very profitable. Lincoln only is profitable with Ford derivatives.
09-19-2018 07:44 PM
glyphics
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator View Post
Aviator could be a big deal, how big depends on how well it stands out. It's not a crowded segment and they certainly have a unique take that's hard to ignore. I hope it does well and establishes a new popular model like Navigator.

I think Continental only stands out in Black Label trims, and even then you're still looking at a vehicle that doesn't have the exclusive engineering and performance pedigree of it's competition. On its own the Continental is pretty thin on style and substance, it's really not that far removed from the Ford Taurus based Continentals of my 80's and 90's childhood...this time it's Fusion. From my perspective, nothing has changed AT ALL, this is just how it has to work or not work. So they have to find the right product segments that work with that methodology. The death of the sedan at Ford both opens or closes doors for Lincoln. They either have a chance to develop something truly unique in the company, or they've lost the Ford engineering needed to make it possible. Either way, Lincoln 4 new SUVs are it's last opportunity to head in the right direction.
True!

Ford management has never wanted Lincoln to shine too brightly or be too aspirational; the glare might obscure the family name. There are those who say that Lincoln could only work with what Ford had to give them and that was CD4. But Ford had DEW98 which, in their wisdom, they deemed to good for Lincoln. A Conti on a stretched DEW98 would have had real road presence.

Sadly, Lincoln does have a better chance at market penetration with trucks but the bloom is off the rose. Actually, the bloom was never allowed on this rose. Lincoln trucks will be well designed and luxurious but lack of model variety and, more tellingly, lack of anything that Ford doesn't offer in its showrooms will limit potential customer traffic.
09-19-2018 06:53 PM
Assimilator
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

Aviator could be a big deal, how big depends on how well it stands out. It's not a crowded segment and they certainly have a unique take that's hard to ignore. I hope it does well and establishes a new popular model like Navigator.

I think Continental only stands out in Black Label trims, and even then you're still looking at a vehicle that doesn't have the exclusive engineering and performance pedigree of it's competition. On its own the Continental is pretty thin on style and substance, it's really not that far removed from the Ford Taurus based Continentals of my 80's and 90's childhood...this time it's Fusion. From my perspective, nothing has changed AT ALL, this is just how it has to work or not work. So they have to find the right product segments that work with that methodology. The death of the sedan at Ford both opens or closes doors for Lincoln. They either have a chance to develop something truly unique in the company, or they've lost the Ford engineering needed to make it possible. Either way, Lincoln 4 new SUVs are it's last opportunity to head in the right direction.
09-19-2018 03:42 PM
rmc523
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator View Post
I think Lincoln is struggling to find an expository hook that is compatible with its brand image. The Continental and Navigator are the most recent examples and only one of them was a success. Maybe Navigator is where they start to base their business, similar to the Land Rover with Range Rover.
I think Continental could have been a one two punch with Navigator as far as the brand's image goes, had it had the same impact in production form that the concept had. It just lost so much of it's striking/distinctive design features in the transition to production that, while still a handsome vehicle, it just doesn't have that 'wow' factor that the concept had.

As you pointed out, Navigator has been much more successful in that regard, and it'll be up to Aviator (and to a lesser extent, Corsair) to carry that torch until a new Nautilus and Lincoln's Mach 1 come along. Hopefully Aviator barely changes....I think what we saw is largely production, aside from mirrors and a few other details. The EV model will be their opportunity to break the mold and go for a "production concept" look, IMO.
09-19-2018 02:06 PM
Assimilator
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

I think Lincoln is struggling to find an expository hook that is compatible with its brand image. The Continental and Navigator are the most recent examples and only one of them was a success. Maybe Navigator is where they start to base their business, similar to the Land Rover with Range Rover.
09-19-2018 03:54 AM
falcon lover
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

I think Lincoln needs something that attract the attention of the public. The easiest way is with a car with a revolutionary design that appeals to the public to have it only for its design. Lincoln have the apropiate quality, powerplants and tech today, but doesnt have a car that people desire to own only by how its looks.

Ford has recent history making relevant cars, with revolutionary designs and great sales: 1964 Mustang, 1982 Thunderbird/Cougar XR7 (aero-bird), 1986 Taurus/Sable, 1999 Focus, 2013 Fusion. Lincoln needs to make something relevant in the design department. The Navigator , the Continental are great efforts but doesnt offer something really new. Lincoln needs a car as controversial as the 1980 Cadillac Seville, that inspired others models from Lincoln and Chrysler.
Will the new Aviator be this car? I think is a great design, but not revolutionary enough.
09-19-2018 12:12 AM
Assimilator
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

There are two sides to Lincoln, the mainstream entry level and the exclusive level. I think the Exclusive Lincoln is much more successful both in design, amenities, and fulfilling its brand image and expectations. The entry level side of Lincoln is the same middling Lincoln we've always had. It's more affordable but underachieving and forgettable with a closely related Ford. Lincoln ultimately has to decide what it wants to be and how to get there. It may just take decades, but most of Lincoln's progress seems to be tied to recovering from setbacks. I would say the gap between Lincoln and the luxury market is still growing, not closing..even if Lincoln is about to surge forward a bit.

Either way, Lincoln is plowing ahead with products I'm certainly excited about as a Lincoln buyer and I'm content with that.

Incidentally, Lincoln had its press review event on Monday for Nautilus. I'm guessing it's under embargo but reviews may appear this week.
09-18-2018 11:23 PM
joseodiaga4
Re: Future Product Guide: GM - AutomotiveNews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator View Post
I really think it comes down to Lincoln's weak brand image, it's still struggling to attract enough of the right buyers no matter what they put the badge on. The problem is multi-faceted, Lincoln certainly doesn't grab attention and likes to sneak up on everybody with surprise and delight. I think that's what they hope to do, surprise people with lowered expectations and organically build recognition.

But the thing that constantly annoys me is that even after the positive buzz at Lincoln, it completely dies down and we're back to dismissing/ignoring Lincoln. I saw this happen again with the Caddy XT4 reviews and comparison. The MKC was completely ignored despite the fact it has by far the most available power and performance in the segment and is definitely going to be the most cross-shopped rival.

I also think Lincoln has a design and technology problem, there is very little to be drawn to. But at least they have a clearer design signature inside and out, especially when Lincolns get expensive. But because Lincoln is on Ford's timetable, they are chronically behind...even if Ford is doing a pretty good job checking off the main bullet points.

Aviator and Corsair will be pretty big leaps forward for the company, even if they are not increasing their distance between Ford engineering. But at least the Ford stuff is standing out in its own way. Aviator will be the only RWD 3-row luxury utility outside of German luxury, that's a pretty big dream come true right there. I can't help but feel Lincoln is giving me exactly what I want to buy. I can't say that about Caddy utilities now or in the future.
I agree.... now you sound like Borg, haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator View Post
I really think it comes down to Lincoln's weak brand image, it's still struggling to attract enough of the right buyers no matter what they put the badge on. The problem is multi-faceted, Lincoln certainly doesn't grab attention and likes to sneak up on everybody with surprise and delight. I think that's what they hope to do, surprise people with lowered expectations and organically build recognition.
That is the biggest problem, the weak brand image, but I don't think they do enough to change that....their marketing area has to be one of the worst in the car industry IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator View Post
I also think Lincoln has a design and technology problem, there is very little to be drawn to. But at least they have a clearer design signature inside and out, especially when Lincolns get expensive. But because Lincoln is on Ford's timetable, they are chronically behind...even if Ford is doing a pretty good job checking off the main bullet points.
Also true, and they also shouldn't.....in today's luxury market, a design and especially a technology problem is a BIG problem
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