Ford Inside News banner

1 - 20 of 57 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,933 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-31/you-ll-need-286-pounds-of-coal-to-fuel-that-electric-road-trip?adv=exxonmobilNEF2018&fbclid=IwAR16gfZOaSDzhe5Gb5fLkpTP1F-vTtDHD6ynXqvfal3kJjm_bXk7l9FzvtY

New Yorkers looking to escape the winter chill by driving to Daytona Beach, Florida, would use about 40 gallons of gasoline to traverse the 1,000 miles in a Chevrolet Impala.

Switch that gas guzzler out for an electron-eating EV and the equation changes. A Tesla Model S traveling the same distance would need power generated by about 2,500 cubic feet of natural gas, 286 pounds of coal or 33 minutes of blades spinning on a giant offshore wind turbine to make the same journey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,933 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Glad someone finally did the math here.
Notice how coal and gas produce are not that dissimilar CO2 (350kg vs 310kg).

I bet that 40 gal of gas could easily drop to only about 25-30 gal, using Ford's new hybrid system launching next year. That means CO2 drops to about 220 kg as well and well below a BEV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
866 Posts
I, too, am not convinced that a wholesale changeover to BEVs is immanent in the immediate future. The infrastructure is not there for electric power generation nor for distribution to support a massive transition to BEVs.

Hybrids, however, need to move toward larger capacity batteries and more sophisticated regenerative regimes to give the best possible efficiencies. Sooner or later, vehicles with lower frontal areas, better aerodynamics and lighter weights will make a comeback. Sedans anyone?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,933 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Hybrids, until now, were never designed as full hybrids. Not a single one of them. I think there is plenty of room to improve, starting with an ICE that is designed as part of a hybrid system, not just a current engine with different cam timing, like is used today. Then of course better regenerative systems and more efficient motors and storage batteries. Ford's next gen systems will incorporate all of the above. 50-60 mpg becomes the norm, instead of 35-45mpg. Then there is the PHEV, which I believe will challenge BEV the most, possibly reaching over 120 mpge and battery only range of about 50miles, or enough for most people for a day of driving, to allow plugging in again at night. Literally zero compromise or range anxiety. The CO2 emitted is much less than BEV. And available soon by Ford. And this is with taller CUV-ish vehicles as well. Obviously all that could improve with a sedan, but since those benefits do not sway customers today, Ford is betting they won't sway them with improvements either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
545 Posts
40% of the energy production in my region is nuke, 10% hydro, 4% renewable, 20% natgas. All cleaner than gas. In fact, they'll be mothballing two coal plants soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,609 Posts
Cue incoming "Tesla is perfection, Model 3 means sedans aren't dying, don't question Tesla" comments from a certain poster.... haha

---

Really it all depends on what you do with the vehicle - if you literally never go anywhere but a few miles from your house, a BEV is a realistic option. But if you run around a lot, or go on longer trips, a PHEV is the best of both worlds - save gas using the electric charge, and zero range anxiety as you can just fill up.

As someone pointed out, the system isn't ready for a complete shift to BEVs yet. Can it get there? I'm sure it can, but it's not ready yet. At the moment, unless you operate on renewables, all that's being done is the pollution is shifted from one area (currently the car itself), to other areas - the power facility (again, if not renewable), battery production, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,933 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Cue incoming "Tesla is perfection, Model 3 means sedans aren't dying, don't question Tesla" comments from a certain poster.... haha

---

Really it all depends on what you do with the vehicle - if you literally never go anywhere but a few miles from your house, a BEV is a realistic option. But if you run around a lot, or go on longer trips, a PHEV is the best of both worlds - save gas using the electric charge, and zero range anxiety as you can just fill up.

As someone pointed out, the system isn't ready for a complete shift to BEVs yet. Can it get there? I'm sure it can, but it's not ready yet. At the moment, unless you operate on renewables, all that's being done is the pollution is shifted from one area (currently the car itself), to other areas - the power facility (again, if not renewable), battery production, etc.
BINGO.
If you punish users of fossil fuels through taxation and higher product costs because technology is not ready for large scale usage, you have Paris riots on your hand. The changes to cleaner energy are coming, and have been coming for decades. I am all for the migration away from fossil fuels, but I am totally against the fake alarmist manufactured drama that if we don’t change now, we are doomed in the future. Complete nonsense. If you believe the threat through questionable math models, that a 2 deg increase in global temps is at risk in 80 years dramatically altering our way of life, while ignoring the fact that our planet has already had a similar increase in the past – you are an unrealistic alarmist. Never mind the fact that nobody can prove or disprove it is our doing in the first place, which then again raises the question of how then did it already happen 50K years ago?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,401 Posts
Cue incoming "Tesla is perfection, Model 3 means sedans aren't dying, don't question Tesla" comments from a certain poster.... haha

---

Really it all depends on what you do with the vehicle - if you literally never go anywhere but a few miles from your house, a BEV is a realistic option. But if you run around a lot, or go on longer trips, a PHEV is the best of both worlds - save gas using the electric charge, and zero range anxiety as you can just fill up.

As someone pointed out, the system isn't ready for a complete shift to BEVs yet. Can it get there? I'm sure it can, but it's not ready yet. At the moment, unless you operate on renewables, all that's being done is the pollution is shifted from one area (currently the car itself), to other areas - the power facility (again, if not renewable), battery production, etc.
That we've not embraced nuclear is absurd. If you believe climate change is real and man is the cause you can choose to either destroy the worlds economies, or nuclear, because clean/renewables aren't ready.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
511 Posts
That we've not embraced nuclear is absurd. If you believe climate change is real and man is the cause you can choose to either destroy the worlds economies, or nuclear, because clean/renewables aren't ready.
Be like the French, close down all coal fired power plants and move to 100% Nuclear power....
that way, the French proclaimed themselves clean and green and then challenged every other
euro country to lower their greenhouse emissions..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,933 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Be like the French, close down all coal fired power plants and move to 100% Nuclear power....
that way, the French proclaimed themselves clean and green and then challenged every other
euro country to lower their greenhouse emissions..
And if it suddenly costs $7 to fuel my car, I will join the many others who will surely riot and burn down DC.

Just say the word.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,270 Posts
It would be great if there was a way to store energy produced by solar, wind, wave, or hydro as kinetic energy.
Think of the old wind-up toy cars with springs or pendulum clocks with weights, only some newer technology that would make it feasable.
I saw something a long time ago, where a farmer had a pallet of hay bales hanging out the barn loft. He had it geared so he could run his band saw/lathe for a long time just using the energy of the weight slowly decending. He then would hitch his horses up and pull the hay bales back up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
545 Posts
And if it suddenly costs $7 to fuel my car, I will join the many others who will surely riot and burn down DC.

Just say the word.
TVA completed reactor 2 at Watts Bar for about $5-6b. It produces 1.15GW of power. I don't think going nuclear would make it very expensive. But, I expect the system to get more efficient with more time shifting/storage. TVA has stated that they do not expect any new 24hr plant need for 20 years. And, a little over 40% of their generation is nuclear (about 8GW & I pay $.10kWh). They also sold off a nuclear site because they didn't foresee the need for it and are planning on shuttering 2 coal fired plants (hopefully one of the local ones). So, TVA's prediction of whether the system is ready seems at odds with others'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
545 Posts
It would be great if there was a way to store energy produced by solar, wind, wave, or hydro as kinetic energy.
Think of the old wind-up toy cars with springs or pendulum clocks with weights, only some newer technology that would make it feasable.
I saw something a long time ago, where a farmer had a pallet of hay bales hanging out the barn loft. He had it geared so he could run his band saw/lathe for a long time just using the energy of the weight slowly decending. He then would hitch his horses up and pull the hay bales back up.

That's what Tesla's big battery farms do. They time shift energy. There is a big one in South Australia (100MW). It saved the owners $50m in year one by simply allowing them to sell into the market at peak hours. On a local personal scale, that is what PowerWalls are. In places like CA where there is a drastic price difference between peak energy cost and off-peak, just time-shifting energy without any solar at all, can save an owner significant money.

Also, recently I saw an article on mechanical energy storage like that and the machine stacked and unstacked a tower of stones. Pretty cool.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,933 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I was thinking about what life would be like if I replaced all our cars with BEV in the future. Like many families, we have several cars in our driveway (I have 4), as well as large garages filled with stuff (boats, classic cars, snow mobiles, whatever) and absolutely no place to plug in one let alone many BEV's. I look around my neighborhood, and that theme plays out a lot…..long driveways filled with cars that never end up in a garage. And what about the many apartment or condo dwellers who have no place at all to plug in, often with no garage?

My point, BEV continues to be a limited application solution for most. I don’t see how a bit more range and lowered price will change that any time soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,270 Posts
I was thinking about what life would be like if I replaced all our cars with BEV in the future. Like many families, we have several cars in our driveway (I have 4), as well as large garages filled with stuff (boats, classic cars, snow mobiles, whatever) and absolutely no place to plug in one let alone many BEV's. I look around my neighborhood, and that theme plays out a lot…..long driveways filled with cars that never end up in a garage. And what about the many apartment or condo dwellers who have no place at all to plug in, often with no garage?

My point, BEV continues to be a limited application solution for most. I don’t see how a bit more range and lowered price will change that any time soon.
Garages are now work shops and storage areas.
With multiple cars parked in a driveway, there is always the issue of moving one to get to the other(or get the other close enough to plug in). I think plug in hybrids are going to be the way of the near future for most people. They can plug in when available, but still get great mileage when they cannot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
545 Posts
They make bollard mount chargers. It isn't exactly some insurmountable issue. In fact, it really takes minimal effort. I think you guys might be trying too hard to not like them.

"Why, back in my day, you could put your two pieces of transportation in the back forty and next spring you'd have another one. Can your fancy automobile do that?"

/MumbleGrumbleAngryOldMan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,933 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
They make bollard mount chargers. It isn't exactly some insurmountable issue. In fact, it really takes minimal effort. I think you guys might be trying too hard to not like them.

"Why, back in my day, you could put your two pieces of transportation in the back forty and next spring you'd have another one. Can your fancy automobile do that?"

/MumbleGrumbleAngryOldMan
So I would need several of these mounted outside.....where it rains.

Sounds perfect. I will make sure I am standing in a puddle when I plug in my 4 cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
545 Posts
Yes, they didn't think of that. /sarcasm. They're meant to be outside, the connectors are deeply recessed, and the cable isn't live when you are handling it. The box and your car perform a handshake and systems test before the box sends the juice. You probably have a considerably smaller chance electrocuting yourself than setting yourself on fire fueling a car. Seriously. You're trying too hard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
Glad someone finally did the math here.
Notice how coal and gas produce are not that dissimilar CO2 (350kg vs 310kg).

I bet that 40 gal of gas could easily drop to only about 25-30 gal, using Ford's new hybrid system launching next year. That means CO2 drops to about 220 kg as well and well below a BEV.
You do realize that Coal only represents 29% of US Electrical production while Natural gas is 32%.

Also, this Quote Stood out to me
Coal

Taking that same 1,000-mile road trip in an electric vehicle that needs 33 kilowatt-hours of energy to travel 100 miles, like a Tesla Model S, would require about 286 pounds (130 kilograms) of coal to be burned at the local power plant. Modern coal plants only convert about 35 percent of the fuel’s energy into electricity, and about 10 percent of that electricity could be lost as it travels along power lines.

Even with all those losses, the electric vehicle road trip is still better for the climate than driving a gasoline-powered car. Burning that much coal would release about 310 kilograms of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, compared with 350 kilograms by the 40 gallons of gasoline. Even though coal tends to emit more pollutants than oil for the amount of energy it generates, the efficiency of the electric vehicle, which recharges its battery with every brake, more than makes up the difference.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

Right now 34% of electricity is produced from non-GHG emitting sources another 32% is produced by Natural Gas (50% less polluting than Coal).

Using the average mix of US Electricity production means that the Tesla would produce only 149 Kg of CO2s vs the Gas powered vehicle of 350Kgs of CO2.

Ford's Mythical hybrid system connected to an oversized light-duty vehicle would be lucky to be as efficient as an Impala. the Article also leaves out the fact that Smaller and Lighter EVs like the Bolt and Model-3 are up to 30% more efficient than the heavier Model-S.

Cheers!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
I was thinking about what life would be like if I replaced all our cars with BEV in the future. Like many families, we have several cars in our driveway (I have 4), as well as large garages filled with stuff (boats, classic cars, snow mobiles, whatever) and absolutely no place to plug in one let alone many BEV's. I look around my neighborhood, and that theme plays out a lot…..long driveways filled with cars that never end up in a garage. And what about the many apartment or condo dwellers who have no place at all to plug in, often with no garage?

My point, BEV continues to be a limited application solution for most. I don’t see how a bit more range and lowered price will change that any time soon.
A couple things have changed in the last 5 years.

  • EV have much greater range meaing they can be charged less often.
  • EVs have greater access to charging stations- meaning like a Gas vehicle you don't need to charge them at home.
  • Rapid charging-reduces the need for home charging in alot of cases.
For the normal person they would charge thier vehicle once a week or whenever it's most convenient.
 
1 - 20 of 57 Posts
Top