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Discussion Starter #1
Lincoln prices won't jump to fill Jag void

Amy Wilson

Automotive News | November 12, 2007 - 12:01 am EST




DETROIT — Even with the likely sale of the Jaguar and Land Rover luxury brands, Ford Motor Co. won't try to reach upward with its Lincoln brand.

Lincoln has a lot of opportunity without crossing into the $60,000-plus price range, said Derrick Kuzak, Ford's group vice president of global product development. That means Lincoln won't develop cars to compete in traditional Jaguar territory.

"We have a ways to go to strengthen Lincoln," Kuzak said in an Automotive News interview. "I wouldn't judge it reasonable to even try to go after those kinds of price points.

Instead, Lincoln will aim to improve its lineup every year. He cited the MKZ sedan and MKX crossover as two vehicles that are helping Lincoln rebuild. Lincoln also is introducing the MKS, which it calls its flagship sedan, on Wednesday, Nov. 14, at the Los Angeles auto show. The car will go on sale next year.

Phil Martens, Ford's former North American product chief and Kuzak's predecessor, had said that Lincoln would compete in the $30,000 to $60,000 range.

A big reason, Martens said, was that Ford Motor had other luxury brands, such as Jaguar, to pick up the slack in segments above that range. But Ford now is negotiating with bidders on the sale of Jaguar and Land Rover. It expects to complete a deal by early next year.


Source: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071112/ANA03/711120338/1078&template=printart

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Discussion Starter #2
I added the emphasis on the "flagship" bit. How many times have I read fevered posts from Ford fans that the MKS is NOT to be regarded as the flagship for Lincoln?

Otherwise, I feel Fords position is a good one for Lincoln. GM seems to feel similarly about Cadillac, much to the disappointment of some posters at GMI who think Cadillac should have a $ 100,000 sedan................. tomorrow.
 

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Caddy already sells a $100K car, it's called the XLR.
How many did they sell last year and how much does that car do for their image? I would answer "very little" to both questions. I understand that it is not a sedan, but I don't think that matters much either.
 

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I added the emphasis on the "flagship" bit. How many times have I read fevered posts from Ford fans that the MKS is NOT to be regarded as the flagship for Lincoln?

Otherwise, I feel Fords position is a good one for Lincoln. GM seems to feel similarly about Cadillac, much to the disappointment of some posters at GMI who think Cadillac should have a $ 100,000 sedan................. tomorrow.
I think you are reading too much into this flagship thing. Let me ask you, Do you think that by declaring the MKS the flagship Ford wont commit to any product above the MKS? THAT would be worrisome because as nice as the MKS may end up being it definitely leaves space for a better car above it.

You got me thinking though. Which one is Cadillac flagship at this point? Strictly I would say is the XLR, but factually, at least today and for the near future, it is the CTS.

Which one would you say it is?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think you are reading too much into this flagship thing. Let me ask you, Do you think that by declaring the MKS the flagship Ford wont commit to any product above the MKS? THAT would be worrisome because as nice as the MKS may end up being it definitely leaves space for a better car above it.

You got me thinking though. Which one is Cadillac flagship at this point? Strictly I would say is the XLR, but factually, at least today and for the near future, it is the CTS.

Which one would you say it is?

I wrote that only because every time some poor person called it a "flagship", an army of fans shot the idea down.

I would call the MKS, once it's available, Lincolns flagship. This relegates the Town Car to second string I suppose, but that car is not what it once was and we don't have to rehash that issue here. Until Ford produces a sedan larger and/or more costly than the MKS I think it fair to call it the top-dog.

As for Cadillac, I would say the STS is the flagship (I assume were speaking of sedans, here). It's not the largest sedan, but it rides on the best platform the line has to offer and is the most costly. It offers the most powerful passanger-car engine both in standard and Northstar versions (in fact, the base version is something of a bargain with the new 304 HP V6 standard).
 

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I wrote that only because every time some poor person called it a "flagship", an army of fans shot the idea down.
Where? here?
I would call the MKS, once it's available, Lincolns flagship. This relegates the Town Car to second string I suppose, but that car is not what it once was and we don't have to rehash that issue here. Until Ford produces a sedan larger and/or more costly than the MKS I think it fair to call it the top-dog.

As for Cadillac, I would say the STS is the flagship (I assume were speaking of sedans, here). It's not the largest sedan, but it rides on the best platform the line has to offer and is the most costly. It offers the most powerful passanger-car engine both in standard and Northstar versions (in fact, the base version is something of a bargain with the new 304 HP V6 standard).
Under that criteria, I would agree 100%, the Lincoln MKS is Lincoln's flagship, until further notice.
 

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Yes we love the Lincoln brand, but right now, they have nothing that can light a candal to Cadillacs.
We can sit here and praise Lincoln becouse we are Ford Fans, but I think we need to hold them accountable.
I think the Exit of Jaguar can only be good for Lincoln and Mercury.

The CTS is really good. Boy the MKZ would not even be cross shopped with it. Lincoln has nothing to go aganist XLR.. let alone the V.
I could go on, but, I think Ford needs to get rid of Jaguar and Give lincoln money
 

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Yes we love the Lincoln brand, but right now, they have nothing that can light a candal to Cadillacs.
We can sit here and praise Lincoln becouse we are Ford Fans, but I think we need to hold them accountable.
I think the Exit of Jaguar can only be good for Lincoln and Mercury.

The CTS is really good. Boy the MKZ would not even be cross shopped with it. Lincoln has nothing to go aganist XLR.. let alone the V.
I could go on, but, I think Ford needs to get rid of Jaguar and Give lincoln money
I think this is not a matter of comparing Cadillac to Lincoln at this point. Ford does not have the $6 billion that GM poured into Cadillac (although I would agree it looks like they poured lot less than that), and if they did they probably would have kept Jaguar and Land Rover in the first place.

I wouldn't be so negative about Lincoln though. The SLR is not selling anywhere near the MKX numbers and even though you insist to compare the MKZ and the CTS these two cars do not compete as Cadillac does not have anything in the MKZ segment in the US (they do in Europe but you don't want to see that comparison) and the XLR ans STS were spectacular flops. That may help to explain why while Lincoln is up 14.7% in sales this year so far, Cadillac is down 5.8%, and not worse because the new CTS is selling spectacularly well.

The only thing Cadillac has going for them today is the CTS and the Escalade, good enough to sustain their business since those are their volume sellers.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Where? here?
I think so, early on. But it happened at GMI with certain Ford fans.

Under that criteria, I would agree 100%, the Lincoln MKS is Lincoln's flagship, until further notice.

In this day and age, everything is "until further notice".
What is the latest speculation, educated or not, on any future upper Lincoln?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
That MKR is a go. Expect an announcement soon.

... oh! wait! Did I write that?? ;)

"..........A lawyer for Ford is on line one..."


On a RWD platform? Australian? European? A completely new American?


God, not PANTHER!
 

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"..........A lawyer for Ford is on line one..."
On a RWD platform? Australian? European? A completely new American?
God, not PANTHER!
In all honesty, I have said all I know - or rather, all I've heard (or wanted to hear). But I can't see them doing it, "on a Panther".
 

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I added the emphasis on the "flagship" bit. How many times have I read fevered posts from Ford fans that the MKS is NOT to be regarded as the flagship for Lincoln?
...You got me thinking though. Which one is Cadillac flagship at this point? Strictly I would say is the XLR, but factually, at least today and for the near future, it is the CTS.
Which one would you say it is?
I wrote that only because every time some poor person called it a "flagship", an army of fans shot the idea down.
I would call the MKS, once it's available, Lincolns flagship. This relegates the Town Car to second string I suppose, but that car is not what it once was and we don't have to rehash that issue here. Until Ford produces a sedan larger and/or more costly than the MKS I think it fair to call it the top-dog...


I took my temperature before logging-on... ...and it turned BLUE :eek:
guess I'm either guilty or... :eek::eek:
however
it just depends on one's definition of IS ...I mean 'flagship'.
I just like fine distinctions of meaning/wording (sorry) so imho flagship is more about setting a theme (& 'shining example') for a brand than fastest...most expensive; sometimes biggest, IF that's a key characteristic of the brand;
but imho 'halo car' (XLR,GT) is quite different (re-sorry).

Yet if a brand cancels it's 'flagship' (Lincoln E386) or should (VW) then what?
Does/can that title get inherited by a 'lesser' model?
If the lesser model gets a significant upgrade? (imho possibly)
If it stays the same? (imho No)
(mea culpa)

I just believe not all brands have flagships: Acura,Infiniti,Cadillac,Lincoln(&Jaguar,Mercury,Ford,Mazda),...
anywho
...What is the latest speculation, educated or not, on any future upper Lincoln?

speculation? :evil grin:
"Huntsman will usher in a whole new Rwd-based lineup for Lincoln" :D


ps/re: the article
with probable inflation [imho] $80k is the new $60k [/imho]
which is closer to my-ideal-lineup's Lincoln-upper-$-range
& expect to see that within a few years no matter what suit-speak says.
 

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I think this is not a matter of comparing Cadillac to Lincoln at this point. Ford does not have the $6 billion that GM poured into Cadillac (although I would agree it looks like they poured lot less than that), and if they did they probably would have kept Jaguar and Land Rover in the first place.

I wouldn't be so negative about Lincoln though. The SLR is not selling anywhere near the MKX numbers and even though you insist to compare the MKZ and the CTS these two cars do not compete as Cadillac does not have anything in the MKZ segment in the US (they do in Europe but you don't want to see that comparison) and the XLR ans STS were spectacular flops. That may help to explain why while Lincoln is up 14.7% in sales this year so far, Cadillac is down 5.8%, and not worse because the new CTS is selling spectacularly well.

The only thing Cadillac has going for them today is the CTS and the Escalade, good enough to sustain their business since those are their volume sellers.


Well said.
But I am not so sure that the CTS and MKZ do not compete. Both are mid-sized entry level luxury sedans, both with similar sized V6 engines, and when priced around $34-35K, then they both offer similar performance as well. Many will differentiate them as FWD vs RWD, but I think the large percentage don't care. Plus, the MKZ at around $34K can include AWD, so the disadvantage is then a moot point.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
That may help to explain why while Lincoln is up 14.7% in sales this year so far, Cadillac is down 5.8%, and not worse because the new CTS is selling spectacularly well.
You didn't think I would let this go by, did you?


Lincoln is doing well because it has 2 completely new products it didn't have before. Cadillac has no new models. Newer versions, but no new market segments. Add the MKS to the mix and Lincoln will be doing well indeed by this time next year.

Ford execs are wise to not state sales projections of the MKS. Even if it sells poorly compared to the competition, there can still be lots of crowing. There's no history to compare any of these new models to (unless you want to bring up the Aviator). For example, the last time Lincoln had a car anything like the MKS (large FWD sedan) was the 2002 Continental. By the time the MKS makes it to dealers, 6 years will have passed. So no matter what sales are they can and will be hearlded as fantastic.
 

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Lincoln true flagship will arrive by 2010 or 11 with the MKR based on the huntsmen

: blush: I'm so picky, I'd say one of the cars after the MKR is the flagship (depending of course on one's def. of IS)

I'm not fluent in Ford-ese yet. What is a "huntsmen"?

Huntsman is the (rumored/speculated*) GlobalRwdPlatform
to be developed
to replace the 'Orion' (codenamed) platform that's debuting next year on the nextgen Australian FALCON
& be used(*) for Lincolns and others(*).

btw, it's "Ford-ish" not Ford-ese ;)
 
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