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Mercury C557
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Anyone know where on the Net a full listing can be found? or want to contribute to making one?

Battery Sizing for Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles in Beijing:
A TCO Model Based Analysis
- Pdf (2014)
...
Abstract: This paper proposes a total cost of ownership (TCO) model for battery sizing of
plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs). The proposed systematic TCO model innovatively
integrates the Beijing driving database and optimal PHEV energy management strategies
developed earlier. The TCO, including battery, fuel, electricity, and salvage costs, is
calculated in yearly cash flows. The salvage cost, based on battery degradation model, is
proposed for the first time. The results show that the optimal battery size for PHEVs in
Beijing is 6–8 kWh.
Several additional scenarios are also analyzed:
(1) 10% increase in battery price or discount rate leads to an optimal battery size of 6 kWh,
and 10% increase in fuel price shifts the optimal battery size to 8 kWh;
(2) the longer and more dispersive daily range distribution in the U.S. increases the optimal battery size to 14 kWh;
(3) the subsidy in China results in an optimal battery size of 13 kWh,
while that in the U.S. results in 17 kWh,
and a fuel savings rate based subsidy policy is innovatively proposed;
(4) the optimal battery size with Li4Ti5O12 batteries is 2 kWh,
but the TCO of Li4Ti5O12 batteries is higher than that of LiFePO4 batteries...
- - - - - - -
unrelated



UPdate:
I'm surprised pure BEVs have (already) been ahead of Plug-Ins
- cuz of Tesla?
- afaik there are still more choices in the P-Is
.
 

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Mercury C557
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22,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
just scrolling thru an old textfile for numbers...then googling :facepalm:

70, 75, 90, or 100 kWh 2016 Tesla Model X & 2017 Model S (afaik)
65-75 kWh Tesla Model 3
60-85 kWh [disc] Tesla S
60 kWh Chevy Bolt (2017) 150kW/201hp peak
56 kWh [disc] Tesla Roadster (2009)

41.8 kWh Toyota RAV4-electric

30-24 kWh Nissan Leaf = 80kW/107bhp
28 kWh 2017 Hyundai Ioniq EV = 88kW/120PS
27 kWh Kia Soul EV = 81.4kW/109bhp
24 kWh Fiat 500e 83kW/111ehp
23 kWh Focus Electric = 107kW/143.48hp

19/21.3 kWh [disc?] Chevy Spark EV (2013–2016?) 97kW/130bhp
16 kWh Mitsubishi i-MiEV 49kw/66ehp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
22 kWh BMW i3 Plug-in 125kW/167.6hp + 650cc 2cyl gas 34 hp/25 kW
18.4 kWh Cadillac CT6 Plug-in ___ + 2.0T 4cyl 265hp = 335hp total
18.4 kWh 2016 Volt² + gas 1.5L 101hp/75kW
16.5/16 kWh ELR /Volt + gas 84hp/63kw
16kWh Chrysler Pacifica Plug-in + 3.6v6 = 260hp total

12 kWh Outlander PHEV

10.8 kWh Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid Plug-in 95ehp + 333hp 3.0schg = 416hp

9.9 kWh Passat PHEV 80 kW + 115 kW gas 1.4 TSI = 155 kW
9.8 kWh 2016 Hyundai Sonata Plug-in
9.4 kWh Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid Plug-in 136ehp + 330hp 2.9schg = 462hp
9.2 kWh Volvo XC90 T8 34kW(?)starter-generator + 2.0S&T 316hp = 400hp total
9.0-9.2kWh BMW X5 xDrive40e Plug-in 111ehp + 2.0T 240hp = 308hp tot.
8.9 kWh 2017 Hyundai Ioniq Plug-in 45kW/61PS + 1.6GDI 78kW/105hp = ?
8.8 kWh VW GTE Plug-in Golf 101-102eHP + 1.4 gas 148-150HP = ?
8.8 kWh Audi A3 Sportback e-tron 75kW + 1.4 150hp/110 kW = 204hp/150kW total
8.8 kWh Prius Prime 68kW/91ehp + 1.8 4cyl 95hp/71kW = 121hp/90kW
8.7 kWh MB plug-in S500 + 3.0TT V6 = 436 hp

7.6 kWh Ford Energi's 88kw/118ehp + gas 141hp = 188hp
7.1 kWh BMW i8 Plug-in 96kW/131ehp + 1.5T 3cyl 172½kW/231hp = ?

4.4 kWh [disc] Prius Plug-in (2012-2015)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1.6 kWh 2016 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid
1.56 kWh 2017 Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid 32kW/43 bhp + 1.6 = 139bhp/104kW
1.4 kWh Ford Hybrids 88kw/118ehp + gas 141hp = 188hp
1.3 kWh Prius(2009)
1.1 kWh VW Jetta TurboHybrid = 150hp + 27hpE = 170total

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

utility factor in EV mode (wiki)/EPA= % of miles driven using electricity by average driver
83% BMW i3 REx
66% Chevrolet Volt
65% Cadillac ELR
45% Ford Energi models
43% McLaren P1
39% Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid
37% BMW i8 roadster
29% Toyota Prius PHV

.
 

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For China, a PHEV has to offer 31 EV miles to qualify for the consumer to qualify for the subsidy. This is why the Mondeo PHEV coming to China late this year will have a larger battery pack than the Energi models sold in the US, and offer 31 EV miles. A 10-mile increase. The question is why has Ford not offered this larger battery pack in the current Energi models in the US? Do they really need to be forced to compete? Which shows a lack of dedication as it relates to electrified vehicles? This should have happened with the Fusion and C-Max Energi update.
 

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Mercury C557
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22,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
even tho I'm proudly *paranoiac*,
I feel Ford's condition is more a mental impairment than mercenary-greed,
and becuz of that, CANNOT understand how FLincmoco ignores that:
ex: I'm very impressed where Lincoln has gotten to
BUT
to the GREAT MAJORITY, Lincoln does NOT EXIST...as anything meaningful
so too
for electrification
FORD DOES NOT EXIST ...& imho will take just as much time as Lincoln to make a DENT in perceptions
:facepalm:
corporate-suicidal facts:
- trucks will provide plenty of petrol dependency/jonesing
- the stoopidity of NOT putting the $10k e-drivetrains in e-LUX cars
- ditto ^ not USING their parts bin, ie spreading it more (MKZ-ENergi / Virtual-e-Awd)
- ditto ^ chasing the phantom of autonoM.O.U.S.E.y instead of the CERTAINTY of ELECTRIFICATION
- not getting even slightly ahead of the arrivING phase-change = a SLEW of electrifried vehicles goING On-Sale

:facepalm:
Can someone contribute a countUP of H/PHEV/BEV available models as they've increased over ~the past 2 years? ...or even better, since the Fusion-Energi came out??
70, 75, 90, or 100 kWh 2016 Tesla Model X & 2017 Model S (afaik)
65-75 kWh Tesla Model 3
60-85 kWh [disc] Tesla S
60 kWh Chevy Bolt (2017) 150kW/201hp peak
56 kWh [disc] Tesla Roadster (2009)

41.8 kWh Toyota RAV4-electric

30-24 kWh Nissan Leaf = 80kW/107bhp
28 kWh 2017 Hyundai Ioniq EV = 88kW/120PS
27 kWh Kia Soul EV = 81.4kW/109bhp
24 kWh Fiat 500e 83kW/111ehp
23 kWh Focus Electric = 107kW/143.48hp

19/21.3 kWh [disc?] Chevy Spark EV (2013–2016?) 97kW/130bhp
16 kWh Mitsubishi i-MiEV 49kw/66ehp
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
22 kWh BMW i3 Plug-in 125kW/167.6hp + 650cc 2cyl gas 34 hp/25 kW
18.4 kWh Cadillac CT6 Plug-in ___ + 2.0T 4cyl 265hp = 335hp total
18.4 kWh 2016 Volt² + gas 1.5L 101hp/75kW
16.5/16 kWh ELR /Volt + gas 84hp/63kw
16kWh Chrysler Pacifica Plug-in + 3.6v6 = 260hp total

12 kWh Outlander PHEV

10.8 kWh Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid Plug-in 95ehp + 333hp 3.0schg = 416hp

9.9 kWh Passat PHEV 80 kW + 115 kW gas 1.4 TSI = 155 kW
9.8 kWh 2016 Hyundai Sonata Plug-in
9.4 kWh Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid Plug-in 136ehp + 330hp 2.9schg = 462hp
9.2 kWh Volvo XC90 T8 34kW(?)starter-generator + 2.0S&T 316hp = 400hp total
9.0-9.2kWh BMW X5 xDrive40e Plug-in 111ehp + 2.0T 240hp = 308hp tot.
8.9 kWh 2017 Hyundai Ioniq Plug-in 45kW/61PS + 1.6GDI 78kW/105hp = ?
8.8 kWh VW GTE Plug-in Golf 101-102eHP + 1.4 gas 148-150HP = ?
8.8 kWh Audi A3 Sportback e-tron 75kW + 1.4 150hp/110 kW = 204hp/150kW total
8.8 kWh Prius Prime 68kW/91ehp + 1.8 4cyl 95hp/71kW = 121hp/90kW
8.7 kWh MB plug-in S500 + 3.0TT V6 = 436 hp

7.6 kWh Ford Energi's 88kw/118ehp + gas 141hp = 188hp
7.1 kWh BMW i8 Plug-in 96kW/131ehp + 1.5T 3cyl 172½kW/231hp = ?

4.4 kWh [disc] Prius Plug-in (2012-2015)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1.6 kWh 2016 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid
1.56 kWh 2017 Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid 32kW/43 bhp + 1.6 = 139bhp/104kW
1.4 kWh Ford Hybrids 88kw/118ehp + gas 141hp = 188hp
1.3 kWh Prius(2009)
1.1 kWh VW Jetta TurboHybrid = 150hp + 27hpE = 170total
 

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Mercury C557
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22,734 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
^nice to be able to always count on you, @SP1966
:thumb: /:angel

&
wiki, "...A plug-in hybrid version, the Ford Fusion Energi, was released in the U.S. in February 2013..."
[ 2013 ] EVobsession.com - CHART &attached

don't think ^that^ is gonna work = too Much work :(
& incomplete: GM & Lexoid hybrids not specified, hydrogenHonda included unlabelled, vehicles I never heard of, ...

[ 2014 ] 13 New Electric Vehicles For Sale In 2014 - EVobsession.com
...
[ 2017forecast ] EVobsession.com written 2014

...H / PHEV / BEV...
well, thanks to EVobsession think I'll need to add / Hydrogen / Solar
 

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Mercury C557
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Originally published on CleanTechnica By Loren McDonald
The Current & Future State of EVs from the 'BIG 3' US Auto Companies
EVobsession.com
- Published on June 2nd, 2017 by EV Expert

Let’s be clear, despite various comments and announcements from executives at the “Big 3” auto companies (Ford, GM, and Fiat Chrysler), they obviously have yet to really embrace electric cars.

Let’s look at their recent/current plug-in hybrid and pure battery electric model offerings^

That’s it, a grand total of 3 currently available pure-electric vehicles (BEVs) and 5 plug-in hybrids across 3 car companies that sell 8 brands of cars and trucks. Two models (Cadillac ELR and Chevrolet Spark) were discontinued in 2016 and one, the Fiat 500e, is a compliance car and only available in two states.

Are the Big 3 About to Get Serious About Electric Vehicles?
...

Ford Motor Company: Talk, Talk

...

General Motors: Nice Job With the Bolt, But Hey, What Do You Do for an Encore?

...

Fiat Chrysler: EVs Are Stupid, and Besides, We’re Just Trying to Survive

...

More...
 

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It may be that with the density of battery cells in flux, it's more about how much 'range' that's most important to consumers as opposed to just the battery or pack size.
So you're saying it's about raw power and not just physical size? Does speed play into this too?
 

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So you're saying it's about raw power and not just physical size? Does speed play into this too?
Yes it would, but it will decrease the range, very much like a combustion engine car. The faster you go the lower the mpg and fewer miles from that tank of gas.

Based on the Tesla presentation, Musk mentioned they are offering miles or range for the Model 3 instead of battery pack size since that is what consumers are most concerned about with an EV, primarily at this price point.
 

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Yes it would, but it will decrease the range, very much like a combustion engine car. The faster you go the lower the mpg and fewer miles from that tank of gas.

Based on the Tesla presentation, Musk mentioned they are offering miles or range for the Model 3 instead of battery pack size since that is what consumers are most concerned about with an EV, primarily at this price point.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
 

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I have no idea what you're talking about.
The less fuel efficient/faster you drive, the less 'range' you get from a tank of gas. With Musk, the change is with Model 3 where the focus is more on the range instead of battery pack size, unlike the Model S with models like P100D, denoting battery pack size.

Make sense?
 

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The ideal would be swappable batteries. I've been told by many engineers, however, that for automotive applications, swappable batteries are not feasible but it sure would solve the other elephant in this battery size/range debate, recharging time.
 

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The ideal would be swappable batteries. I've been told by many engineers, however, that for automotive applications, swappable batteries are not feasible but it sure would solve the other elephant in this battery size/range debate, recharging time.
Aren't Tesla's battery packs already relatively interchangeable?
 

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Aren't Tesla's battery packs already relatively interchangeable?
I'm referring to a gas-station model of swappable batteries; IOW an industry-standard battery form-factor for battery configuration designed for automated quick-swap where the battery is not part-of-the-car, just as gasoline is not part-of-the-car. When you buy a car from a dealer, you leave with a full tank of gas that you didn't buy so your new car comes with a battery that you didn't actually buy.

So a driver pulls into a battery-station positions the car over a ground-level device that attaches to your swappable battery-pack, Reads the level of energy left in the car's battery, then swaps out the "old" battery for a "new" battery and charges the driver for the difference in battery charge between the "new" battery and the "old."

The swap would take less than 5 minutes, the same time as it takes to fill up a gas tank. The "old" battery gets charged at the station and put into a magazine conveyor with other charged-up batteries to feed the the ground-level swapping device. As battery technology evolves, the form-factor doesn't change but the level of battery charge evolves adding gains in efficiency and range over time.

As I said, I've been told that this kind of technology would be impossible for any number reasons relating to engineering as well as standardization and infrastructure/distribution obstacles. If it were possible, it would solve the charging-time problem that we have now of batteries-as-part-of-the-car.

That's what I meant by "swappable" as opposed to "interchangeable."
 

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I'm referring to a gas-station model of swappable batteries; IOW an industry-standard battery form-factor for battery configuration designed for automated quick-swap where the battery is not part-of-the-car, just as gasoline is not part-of-the-car. When you buy a car from a dealer, you leave with a full tank of gas that you didn't buy so your new car comes with a battery that you didn't actually buy.

So a driver pulls into a battery-station positions the car over a ground-level device that attaches to your swappable battery-pack, Reads the level of energy left in the car's battery, then swaps out the "old" battery for a "new" battery and charges the driver for the difference in battery charge between the "new" battery and the "old."

The swap would take less than 5 minutes, the same time as it takes to fill up a gas tank. The "old" battery gets charged at the station and put into a magazine conveyor with other charged-up batteries to feed the the ground-level swapping device. As battery technology evolves, the form-factor doesn't change but the level of battery charge evolves adding gains in efficiency and range over time.

As I said, I've been told that this kind of technology would be impossible for any number reasons relating to engineering as well as standardization and infrastructure/distribution obstacles. If it were possible, it would solve the charging-time problem that we have now of batteries-as-part-of-the-car.

That's what I meant by "swappable" as opposed to "interchangeable."
Right.....Tesla was working on this already, but I guess they moved away from it?
 

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Mercury C557
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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
copying for reference :thumb:
...It is a great read on where we are with battery tech.
Link to Article ( 1.6mb Pdf )
by WardsAuto Editorial Director, David E. Zoia

Battery makers only recently have begun to make big commitments to high-volume Li-ion production, with 12 new or expanded mega-factories reportedly set to come online worldwide by 2020. That includes 120 GWh of new cell capacity in China alone – enough battery power for another 1.5 million EVs annually.

With that level of new investment, the industry likely is chained to Li-ion technology – for better or worse – for most of the coming decade, or even beyond.

“We’re just at the forefront, the beginning if you will, of Li-ion battery technologies,” Bob Galyen, chief technology officer for China-based battery maker Contemporary Amperex Technology (CATL), says at the Battery Show Exhibition and Conference held in Novi, MI, in September.

That’s not to say battery makers, upstarts and researchers aren’t furiously experimenting with new chemistries and configurations in an effort to displace today’s state-of-the-art technology. They are.

All are focused on making level-of-magnitude leaps in range, safety and durability with new concepts that use more widely available, less-costly materials; swap metals with air to cut weight; and replace the current volatile liquid electrolytes used with heat-resistant solids.

The U.S. Department of Energy has set a 2020 target to cut battery-pack size and weight in half and slash costs to $125/kWh, a price point seen igniting a market shift toward electrified vehicles.

One of the concerns with today’s Li-ion batteries is the restricted availability of lithium and cobalt, a problem that only will grow as EV models proliferate and production ramps up.

WardsAuto data indicates automakers have penciled in no fewer than 85 new battery-powered models by 2025, with everyone from Aston Martin to Volvo announcing aggressive EV plans. Even commercial-truck makers are eyeing electrically powered big rigs for the future. That has Transparency Market Research projecting the Li-ion battery market will grow to $77.4 billion worldwide by 2024, from $29.7 billion in 2015, an escalation likely to ramp up pressure on the supply chain.

Demand for cobalt, becoming the go-to material for the cathode in Li-ion batteries, already is expected to outstrip supply this year by 900 tons, commodity consultancy CRU estimates.

Lithium supply may be even more problematic. Two-thirds of proven reserves are located in the “Lithium Triangle,” a small area of South America where Argentina, Bolivia and Chile intersect. That has cell producers in China, the fourth-largest source of lithium, locking up stakes in Chilean and Argentinian mining companies to corner the market on the material and further tighten their grip on the emerging EV-battery sector.

Prices reportedly have been skyrocketing.

“We’re starting to see some headwinds coming in from raw materials,” Joern Tinnemeyer, chief technology officer for EnerSys, notes during a Battery Show panel discussion. “This may have some impact on EV adoption, because the price point will not drop as much as we need it to.”

But moving past some of these constraints with new technology won’t come easily...

Nickel-3D Zinc - pg8
Zinc Air
- pg13
Lithium-Air
- pg14
Solid State
- pg15
Li-ion, Still Future for Now
- pg17
 

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