Ford Inside News banner

41 - 60 of 80 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,812 Posts
Discussion Starter #42 (Edited)
The Volt was B-Max like, which is basically a PHEV. Bolt is pure BEV.
The Volt was a midsize sedan, I'm not sure I understand you there.

I'm saying that the Mach1 is is an alternative to the midsize sedan BEV. It's right in that spot where the sedan at Ford died. And it's packaged in a way that bridges the gap better than Escape or Edge for example.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,812 Posts
Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
BTW, Here is some insight from a poster at BON. Focus Active may have missed the mark anyway for the reasons I think some of us have openly speculated about. Ultimately it was too expensive for a pseudo SUV without AWD that was obviously a compact hatchback anyway.

I would like to have seen it, but Ford has too many vehicles in that price range anyway.

Ran into someone I used to work with at the company Ford uses for some consumer studies. The tariff was just the final straw for the active in the US, it BOMBED in the consumer clinics. Biggest problems were that the price point was high, (PP was going to be 21k-26k) style didnt work with the sub 40 consumer Ford was targeting, lack of AWD was also a big concern. Being assembled in China actually didnt have much impact in the clinics, though they conducted in coastal cities.

The tariff threat was the final straw, that it wasnt going to sell would have been much worse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,933 Posts
The Volt was a midsize sedan, I'm not sure I understand you there.

I'm saying that the Mach1 is is an alternative to the midsize sedan BEV. It's right in that spot where the sedan at Ford died. And it's packaged in a way that bridges the gap better than Escape or Edge for example.

Volt was not a mid size sedan if anything it was a compact it is similar dimensions to a Cruze not a Malibu. The first gen was on the Delta platform.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,893 Posts
Not an equivalent in the slightest. Bolt is basically a B-Max, these cars couldn't be more dissimilar.

Although I have to admit that I think the Mach1 is going to be pricey (like all Fords moving forward).
It's really the fact that GM was able to develop an EV drivetrain and battery pack, and get a 238 mile EV in production back in 2016 with more to come by 2020. Ford is still trying to get their first dedicated EV designed and into production by 2020. The top hat on the ev platform/drivetrain matters less than what's under the top hat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,812 Posts
Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
Ford is not that late really, right now only flagship luxury marques are debuting desirable BEVs, which are still very expensive. And none of them are making Teslas and few of them deliver on the range needed. Ford may be the first to have a desirable no-comrpromise crossover BEV that isn't completley out of reach for its customers. Ford is also electrifying just about everything they have, adding EV torque alongside gas in every conceivable engine from I4 to V8 + FWD, RWD, and AWD. I don't see anybody even close to doing this. I don't know how many times I have to keep touting this, it's going to be transformative...even if it isn't that flashy. If you love electrification, there is no company making a bigger commitment to putting the tech into more hands than Ford. Chevy managed to create a bunch of EV non starters, repeatedly. They are fascinating early adopter examples, but nobody wants them because they aren't the right products. I honestly respect Ford's careful scheming here, everything is timed to new technologies and products that required a corporate-wide justification for investment. All of the pieces needed to align to make this technology scale. When it's this important, Ford usually waits to get it right and nobody looks back.

As for GM's experience...it's not the right experience and they wasted money in the process. Even now that Ford has largely gone on EV hiatus, they sold more Hybrids than anybody besides Toyota.

I do believe GM will get the BEV story right fairly quickly once the industry norms become clear, but they are not even remotely close to Ford's vast Hybrid strategy.

I think for me as a potential BEV customer, I will still likely chose Tesla over Ford because of the Supercharger network. Ford and others are still a long way from that type of infrastructure and they know it which is something they have to sort out. Which is why Ford is smart to make performance Hybrids a big part of their strategy while they solve the barriers for BEV customers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
348 Posts
Ford is not that late really, right now only flagship luxury marques are debuting desirable BEVs, which are still very expensive. And none of them are making Teslas and few of them deliver on the range needed. Ford may be the first to have a desirable no-comrpromise crossover BEV that isn't completley out of reach for its customers. Ford is also electrifying just about everything they have, adding EV torque alongside gas in every conceivable engine from I4 to V8 + FWD, RWD, and AWD. I don't see anybody even close to doing this. I don't know how many times I have to keep touting this, it's going to be transformative...even if it isn't that flashy. If you love electrification, there is no company making a bigger commitment to putting the tech into more hands than Ford. Chevy managed to create a bunch of EV non starters, repeatedly. They are fascinating early adopter examples, but nobody wants them because they aren't the right products. I honestly respect Ford's careful scheming here, everything is timed to new technologies and products that required a corporate-wide justification for investment. All of the pieces needed to align to make this technology scale. When it's this important, Ford usually waits to get it right and nobody looks back.

As for GM's experience...it's not the right experience and they wasted money in the process. Even now that Ford has largely gone on EV hiatus, they sold more Hybrids than anybody besides Toyota.

I do believe GM will get the BEV story right fairly quickly once the industry norms become clear, but they are not even remotely close to Ford's vast Hybrid strategy.

I think for me as a potential BEV customer, I will still likely chose Tesla over Ford because of the Supercharger network. Ford and others are still a long way from that type of infrastructure and they know it which is something they have to sort out. Which is why Ford is smart to make performance Hybrids a big part of their strategy while they solve the barriers for BEV customers.
This reminds me of what happened about 15 years ago here in Australia.



Ford designed the Territory as an alternative, large SUV, to the plethora of 4WDs available. Cost was around $600m. It was an instant winner and remained so til the demise of all production in 2016.

At that time GM Holden decided to do the same with it's Holden Commodore wagon and called it the Adventra after they basically did a "Focus Active" on it at a cost of $265m. They added cladding, raised it and included AWD. It failed within a few years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
866 Posts
Charging infrastructure will be a roadblock to the mainstreaming of the BEV. Most multi-car families I know have different brands in their driveways. Unless there is some standardization of BEV charging infrastructure analogous to every fuel pump nozzle fits every car's gas tank filler, customers will be locked into the charging apparatus of each individual vehicle manufacturer, limiting their choices. They won't like that and may stick with ICE vehicles to maintain their freedom of choice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,812 Posts
Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
I think once Ford makes EV torque 'affordable' and available in their favorite Ford vehicles, the huge performance gap between BEVs and ICEs will start to close and you have less compromise. It's obviously less desirable for those who want to avoid gas altogether which is why we will still have Ford BEVs which are going to deliver the best EV performance.

BTW, we are getting a BEV F-150.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,956 Posts
Reason 101 why eliminating sedans can help your bottom line, is that you can invest more capitol into your highest margin products, further distancing you from the competition, and thus increasing sales. Kind of like how Jeep has the off road market dominated, Ford can move closer to truck domination.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Reason 101 why eliminating sedans can help your bottom line, is that you can invest more capitol into your highest margin products, further distancing you from the competition, and thus increasing sales. Kind of like how Jeep has the off road market dominated, Ford can move closer to truck domination.
Posters with wisdom like you and Borg keep saying this but some keep blathering on about a CD6 Continental (which wouldn't sell) or what a tragedy Ford's discontinuing unprofitable sedans is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,956 Posts
Posters with wisdom like you and Borg keep saying this but some keep blathering on about a CD6 Continental (which wouldn't sell) or what a tragedy Ford's discontinuing unprofitable sedans is.
Well, I get the desire and passion for a luxury sedan. All too well. And I still struggle with this decision, but I simply can't help point out the benefits I see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,812 Posts
Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
I learned long ago to recognize what I would like to see decorate my showroom vs what I would actually buy. You learn allot by being a frequent new car consumer and being honest with yourself about the economic realities of customers. Once you and your family have to make decisions on how to spend a huge chunk of money, you really begin to understand why vehicle consumption is the way it is. And I've been around long enough to know what to get excited by as a consumer vs what to get excited by as a spectator.

I'm a Lincoln costumer, have been since the 90's. I can reliably predict what will be successful based entirely on the "would I buy it?" factor. If I wouldn't, then I know real customers won't either. The Continental is a good example of a decoration car, it's nice to admire but there is no way I would buy something so curiously nostalgic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
They have stopped development on the Focus Active for the US and reassigned/pocketed those assets. So no, Focus Active is off the books permanently. It's also unlikely that the tariff situation will be resolved to Ford's satisfaction, and they certainly can't invest further with this uncertainty anyway.

It's also probable Ford will have to further cut product plans once NAFTA 2 is finalized since they may have to reduce their Mexican output.

Either way, Ford is facing extremely stiff headwinds and uncertainty, they will have to be very flexible and just ramp up the cost-cutting to balance out the tariffs.

There are always solutions out there, I could even see Ford partnering with another Automaker to make products for them, especially economy products. We may just have to move Ford into a more innovative outsourcing model, especially as the market contracts for all automakers and building cars in the US becomes more expensive and new car ownership falls out of reach.

flexibility and Agility have never been a Strength of Ford Motor Company.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
Not an equivalent in the slightest. Bolt is basically a B-Max, these cars couldn't be more dissimilar.

Although I have to admit that I think the Mach1 is going to be pricey (like all Fords moving forward).
It will be pricey?

Ford hybrids are a Joke, there is no reason to expect their ONLY EV to be any different. it's is a vanity project.

There is so much turmoil in product development at for right now (sales forecasts, production Siteing, Component volume, and pricing) that I'd imagine building an accurate pricing model on a new EV that was supposed to share a significant amount of components with a C2 Focus is a nightmare.

Ford just isn't a good company right now, Mullaly understood that Ford cannot survive by planning to shrink. Ford is losing its ability to survive as a Global automaker. GM could shed Europe because it was Strong in Asia with Small and cheap cars, without Ford of Europe Ford becomes a large car and truck company, and a niche player in Asia.

There is a Reason the stock price is so low, there isn't much opportunity for Ford to grow but an exceptional chance for Ford to Decline, forcing more and more drastic and desperate actions.


:frown2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,609 Posts
It will be pricey?

Ford hybrids are a Joke, there is no reason to expect their ONLY EV to be any different. it's is a vanity project.

There is so much turmoil in product development at for right now (sales forecasts, production Siteing, Component volume, and pricing) that I'd imagine building an accurate pricing model on a new EV that was supposed to share a significant amount of components with a C2 Focus is a nightmare.

Ford just isn't a good company right now, Mullaly understood that Ford cannot survive by planning to shrink. Ford is losing its ability to survive as a Global automaker. GM could shed Europe because it was Strong in Asia with Small and cheap cars, without Ford of Europe Ford becomes a large car and truck company, and a niche player in Asia.

There is a Reason the stock price is so low, there isn't much opportunity for Ford to grow but an exceptional chance for Ford to Decline, forcing more and more drastic and desperate actions.


:frown2:
How are Ford hybrids a joke?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
866 Posts
Posters with wisdom like you and Borg keep saying this but some keep blathering on about a CD6 Continental (which wouldn't sell) or what a tragedy Ford's discontinuing unprofitable sedans is.
So, if someone doesn't agree with you, they're blathering? When I need a primer on wisdom; don't call me, I'll call you.

Meanwhile the tragedy is not that Ford is discontinuing unprofitable sedans. The tragedy is that Ford allowed their sedans to become unprofitable. It's all about product. Unfortunately, for Ford management, it's all about dividends and share value; things that do not quickly reward investments in excellence. Excellent Mustangs. Excellent F-150s. Why weren't there excellent sedans?

People will buy what's desirable and they won't buy what's not. Tanking sales may not necessarily mean that the segment is dead. Tanking sales may mean that what you are offering in the segment is dead.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,609 Posts
So, if someone doesn't agree with you, they're blathering? When I need a primer on wisdom; don't call me, I'll call you.

Meanwhile the tragedy is not that Ford is discontinuing unprofitable sedans. The tragedy is that Ford allowed their sedans to become unprofitable. It's all about product. Unfortunately, for Ford management, it's all about dividends and share value; things that do not quickly reward investments in excellence. Excellent Mustangs. Excellent F-150s. Why weren't there excellent sedans?

People will buy what's desirable and they won't buy what's not. Tanking sales may not necessarily mean that the segment is dead. Tanking sales may mean that what you are offering in the segment is dead.
Sales of the brand new Accord and Camry are tanking too...

Honda just announced they're dropping trim levels of the brand new Accord.
 
  • Like
Reactions: falcon lover

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
So, if someone doesn't agree with you, they're blathering? .
No, they're blathering when they keep going on and on and on whining about the same subject.

Can't go back in history and make the first generation Taurus or Focus or Escort better and more reliable cars. Had Ford done a better job, the Camry, Accord, Civic, and Corolla wouldn't dominate the market the way they do. The fact is the F series and to a lesser extent Explorer and Mustang are what Ford's got, and with its massive debt Ford can't afford to keep trying with sedans.
 
41 - 60 of 80 Posts
Top