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"The provision repealing qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicles would be effective for vehicles placed in service for tax years beginning after 2017," the Republican bill states. The change is estimated to increase tax revenues by about $4 billion.

Well that makes sense to do. Subsidize = bribe. And this is a much better use of our tax $$'s

I guess the chances of EV sales increasing as fast as some think, is much less likely now.
 

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Discussion Starter #203 (Edited)
This has nothing whatsoever to do with a benefit for America or the American people, but EVERYTHING to do with ensuring the 'bribes' from the oil industry continues to political campaigns.

According to the Wall Street Journal, the US already offers $4.76 BILLION in subsidies to the petroleum industry. An industry that earned $55.1 BILLION in one quarter according to ABC News.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/does-the-oil-and-gas-industry-still-need-tax-breaks-1479092522
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=5503955&page=1

This is all about the retarded puppets in politics doing what they are told to get their bribes, in a failed attempt to slow the adoption of EVs in the US. While the rest of the world has already shifted into full speed into the future. But they are too late. Manufacturers have already admitted that long-term selling EVs cost them less to engineer, to build and to sell. With the global demand for EVs growing rapidly, the battery/drivetrain costs have already dropped considerably...making the incentive nice, but not absolutely necessary.

As this relates to Tesla, tax incentives are not what is driving Tesla sales. The $35k Model S cost the same as Fusion Sport but with all the benefits of an EV and over 50% less fuel costs and about 75% less maintenance costs, year after year after year........ Same for Model S and all the new EV coming from other manufacturers. The only American consumers this will hurt are those of lower income who would benefit from the tax incentive, lower maintenance and fuel costs the most. However, the states still have their incentives and California is increasing theirs, with a push toward banning all ICE vehicles.

Clearly, Ford won't be slowing down any EV launch plans, because they are already behind, with the rest of the industry beginning to capitalize on the EV segment and gain customer loyalty with a whole new product. And China and the other forward-thinking countries are not slowing down their requirements but pushing them forward. Just like the petroleum industry got burned the last time they jacked up prices for no reason, this administration is about to feel the same heat come next elections. WOW...just think about it....as the WORLD is transitioning toward solar and EVs, this administration is trying to go backwards opening coal mines (where their own industry museum just installed solar panels to save on energy costs), and now trying to slow adoption of EV, while offering similar subsidies to the oil industry that earns over $50 BILLION in profits in just one quarter...that's where the US government needs to go to look for revenue savings. :rock:
 

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Discussion Starter #204
Ford hybrid vans will be 'geofenced' in cleaner air trial
Ford's Transit plug-in hybrid has a 50-km range on electric power.
Nick Gibbs
Automotive News Europe
October 31, 2017 06:01 CET

Cities around the world are looking at ways to create zero-emissions zones to tackle poor air quality but for now full-electric vehicles are still too expensive to be a viable alternative to internal combustion cars.

Plug-in hybrids, which run on electric power for short distances, are increasingly seen as a stop-gap. One problem with them is how do authorities make sure the car is being driven by the electric motor and not the engine in city centers?

Ford Motor and Transport for London (TfL) are testing geofencing as a way to ensure hybrid cars only run on zero-emission electric power in polluted city centers.

Ford is providing 20 of its new Transit plug-in hybrid vans for a 12-month fleet customer trial in London that starts early next year.

The trial will use GPS-activated technology that will turn off the gasoline engine and force the van to run on electric power in the city center.

"TfL has a strong air-quality agenda and they want to see what benefits this will bring," said Mark Harvey, director of Ford's urban electrified van program.

Ford has said it will bring its hybrid Transit van to market in 2019, and has announced the specification already: a 1.0-liter three-cylinder Ecoboost gasoline engine that charges a battery to give a 50-km (31-mile) range on electric power only and a full gasoline power range of 500 km (310 miles). There is no direct connection between the engine and the wheels, making it a range-extended EV.

The lithium-ion battery pack is located under the load floor, preserving the van's full cargo volume.

Bus, taxi pollution

London Mayor Sadiq Khan plans tough measures to cut diesel emissions in the UK capital. Starting 2020, diesel vehicles rated Euro 5 or less will be banned from an ultra-low emission zone in the city center. Starting Jan. 1 all new London black taxis must be zero-emission capable with diesel banned as a power source. Khan's ultimate goal is a zero-emission zone in central London.

TfL has already begun geofence testing on its hybrid buses, targeting one of the three main sources of diesel pollution. Taxis are the second, and London's ubiquitous delivery vans are the third.

Harvey said it will be difficult to ensure there is enough charge battery remaining in the battery to cover the 21-square km zone, particularly given the abrupt acceleration technique of most couriers and delivery drivers. If there is no charge left, the van switches on its gasoline engine to top up the battery.

But it's clear the best way commercial vehicle manufacturers will appeal to city mayors – and maybe win contracts from them - is to go down the plug-in hybrid gasoline route for vans. London cab maker LEVC, owned by China's Geely, will launch a plug-in hybrid van related to its new hybrid taxi, also in 2019.

The future-proof solution, of course, lies with pure electric vans, something Nissan has with the eNV200, which uses the drivetrain from the Leaf electric car.

China's SAIC has just entered the European market with the Maxus EV80 electric van, which has a 209-km range. The company says it already has an order of 200 from Germany's Maske Fleet, a leasing provider.

Ford, however, believes plug-in hybrid is the right solution for more conservative fleet managers. Harvey said: "Fleets don't want range anxiety, they want range assurance."
 

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Did Fomoco ****-** by not moving faster with electrification?

^ I really question if substituting a generator for the trans-axle/mission on a turbo'ed is best...
...tho Fomoco has scientists/engineers and I doN'T :(

The GOP tax bill kills a $7,500 electric-vehicle credit —
— and that's terrible news for
_ _ _ _
BusinessInsider
- Matthew DeBord - 11-02-2017

...The credit would go away immediately, not be phased out...
...With so few EVs sold annually, the boost to federal revenue if the credit goes away would be marginal...
.
sounding more informed than me but largely my sentiments @ BON:
old_fairmont_wagon said:
Posted Yesterday, 10:57 PM
something to keep in mind, the program was a tax credit. It wasn't just a check cut to the buyer for that whole subsidy amount. You had to have tax liabilities up to that amount to get it in full. For the segment of the population that would have most needed the subsidy, they wouldn't have gotten much from it in the first place as they wouldn't have had anywhere near that amount in tax liabilities. It was as much a hand-out for the mid to upper middle class on up to the rich to get them to buy the vehicle as it was a plan to help save the environment. While I understand the desire to get those that could afford to support the vehicles after purchase to buy them first, it was never about helping people to buy them and instead to make them attractive financially to those that could buy anything.

People are saying that this would hurt Tesla, but it won't. Beyond being just about through with the program themselves, it will make the EVs from their competition less palatable as well. It's lasted just about long enough for Tesla to get to a position to make a mass market EV that can be sold at prices competitive to comparable ICE vehicles.
 

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Discussion Starter #206
Buick key part of GM's electrification strategy
November 3, 2017, 2:49 am
by Ronan Glon

Buick's ties to China will force it to electrify quickly.

General Motors has confirmed its Buick division will play a key role in its electrification offensive. The company announced last month it will introduce at least 20 electric cars by the year 2023.

"Buick will play a huge part [in the offensive]," affirmed Buick-GMC president Duncan Aldred in an interview with WardsAuto.

That's hardly a surprise. China is Buick's biggest market by a long shot, and the Chinese government is expected to enforce some of the strictest emissions regulations on the planet in the coming years. Officials are desperately trying to curb the nation's air pollution problem, so Buick's electrification is vital to its long-term success.

"You talk about quiet tuning, nothing is better than electric. The sense of well-being in the cabin, the serenity, is delivered ultimately by pure electric. It fit that brand exceptionally well," he opined.

Read more: http://www.leftlanenews.com/buick-key-part-of-gms-electrification-strategy-98664.html#ixzz4xWqBteCl
 

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Discussion Starter #207
^......I wonder if Lincoln is thinking the same. By 2019 10% of all Lincoln sales in China have to be electric. 10% of all Ford models have to be electric.

And Lexus has the same idea as Buick, with skipping the (loophole)PHEV and going right to EV.
 

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Discussion Starter #208
"BMW Electrified Vehicles Sales Now At 5.5% Of Total YTD U.S. Sales"

https://insideevs.com/bmw-electrified-vehicles-sales-now-at-5-5-of-total-ytd-u-s-sales/

"According to a recent Automobile Association survey, younger drivers (24- to 34-year-old) in the UK are more interested in buying an electric car that older persons. It is kind of the result one might expect, as the older we get…the less likely we are to accept change (or squeeze our larger selves into smaller offerings), but the data is interesting nonetheless."

https://insideevs.com/younger-drivers-most-likely-to-own-evs/
 

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Discussion Starter #209
Sporty All-Electric Bentley Car Coming In 2019



“What I can say is that a small SUV is no longer on the scheme. We’re favouring a car with a full electric powertrain.”

“We intend to be the leader in electrification in the luxury segment. We see that it fits into the Bentley scheme – low rev torque with seamless acceleration.”

https://insideevs.com/sporty-bentley-ev-coming-in-2019/
 

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Discussion Starter #210
I hope Lincoln is paying attention...

NO EV SUV......a low riding sedan or coupe, low center of gravity with the heavy battery pack, quiet, instant torque, with Lincoln luxury interior. But shouldn't something like this be the new Lincoln coupe?
 

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Discussion Starter #212
There are no enough buyers for all those EVs that will be in the market in 3 years... Some automakers will lose a lot of money.
Remember.....Tesla has over 450,000 Model 3 paid reservations to fulfill globally. To put that in perspective, there were just over 1.3 Million vehicles sold in the US in October. This means that Tesla has over1/3 of the entire US auto market in paid reservations for just one EV. With about 1,800 new reservations being added daily. The rest of the auto industry see this and are trying to capitalize on the tremendous pent-up demand for a nice looking 200+ mile EV. So far the industry has only been willing to offer small utilitarian ecoboxes and hatchbacks. But that's all about to change.

The conversation about EVs reminds me of the conversation about home computers years ago, with so many thinking it's just a fad and not understanding why anyone would want a personal computer when they already have a typewriter.
 

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I think Tesla will absorb and create most of those customers, I don't think the market as a whole is rushing toward EVs in the US. It's a little like the Prius to some extent. The Prius is a freak of Toyota innovation and created the market and then capitalized on it when gas prices shot up. Ford only took interest because of Toyota's success and the subsequent market and regulatory pressures, and once Ford did respond they were relatively successful at it in a very mundane way (buried anonymously in other cars so customers wouldn't notice). Ford has a solid history of playing 2nd fiddle in electrification which is not bad in a such a big industry, but obviously they've been less motivated to join the BEV market because it's expensive and it requires more specialized platforms which HEV and PHEV don't. And since that means a truly competitive BEV has a much more specialized customer, they have to make sure the customer is there before they get into it. And unless the market conditions pressure them to do it, Ford is less likely to be interested. So you have to be somewhat ideological to pursue BEVs in the current environment Ford definitely is not that kind of car company even if they talk like they are. IN either case, Ford is not alone in this and unless Tesla starts selling million of EVs and depletes that customer to the point it's too late..it's not too late for them to join in while they focus on their sure bets (Trucks, SUVs, Vans).

Ford as a whole is not the kind of car company that creates accidentally success stories, but they are very good at making every product a success story. This is not a company that experiments, they calculate..which is boring for sure but not uncommon.
 

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Remember.....Tesla has over 450,000 Model 3 paid reservations to fulfill globally. To put that in perspective, there were just over 1.3 Million vehicles sold in the US in October. This means that Tesla has over1/3 of the entire US auto market in paid reservations for just one EV. With about 1,800 new reservations being added daily. The rest of the auto industry see this and are trying to capitalize on the tremendous pent-up demand for a nice looking 200+ mile EV. So far the industry has only been willing to offer small utilitarian ecoboxes and hatchbacks. But that's all about to change.

The conversation about EVs reminds me of the conversation about home computers years ago, with so many thinking it's just a fad and not understanding why anyone would want a personal computer when they already have a typewriter.
I think that is a poor analogy.
A better one would be that EV's are like when the industry thought that tablets would replace big heavy laptops one day. But instead, they became a limited use device instead. And today, many laptops have become more efficient and light and even hybrids, offering some tablet functionality in addition to full keyboard functionality.
 

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I think that is a poor analogy.
A better one would be that EV's are like when the industry thought that tablets would replace big heavy laptops one day. But instead, they became a limited use device instead. And today, many laptops have become more efficient and light and even hybrids, offering some tablet functionality in addition to full keyboard functionality.
So effectively you are equating an ICE with a physical keyboard? So in this analogy, is there a scenario in which the keyboard/ICE can be replaced?

I wish people would think through their analogies because people would learn to stop using them since they create a false reductive equivalency in every detail.
 

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So effectively you are equating an ICE with a physical keyboard? So in this analogy, is there a scenario in which the keyboard/ICE can be replaced?

I wish people would think through their analogies because people would learn to stop using them since they create a false reductive equivalency in every detail.
Electric car to personal computers is a poor analogy. Nobody believes electric cars are a fad as with personal computers, the only question that is largely debated is when the dam will break and for how long humans will actually maintain control vs being autonomous.
 

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Electric car to personal computers is a poor analogy. Nobody believes electric cars are a fad as with personal computers, the only question that is largely debated is when the dam will break and for how long humans will actually maintain control vs being autonomous.
Steve Jobs famously referred to the PC as a Truck, you need Trucks for some work but most people are now better served by mobile devices (mostly smartphones). And the move to mobility substantially accelerated computing and infrastructure innovation (apps, mobile networking, social networking). I think that's a better analogy, we've peeked out on ICEs and have for decades, but EVs open the world to autonomy and a huge variety of mobile services...but we'll still need those "Trucks" to make that transition and to maintain it. So there is no question where the growth is and where the potential lies and how transformative it will be, so understandably there is a huge amount of kvetching about how to participate in the revolution that is clearly about to happen.
 

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Discussion Starter #218
I think that is a poor analogy.
A better one would be that EV's are like when the industry thought that tablets would replace big heavy laptops one day. But instead, they became a limited use device instead. And today, many laptops have become more efficient and light and even hybrids, offering some tablet functionality in addition to full keyboard functionality.
Tablets were never to replace the laptop, but another option when a laptop was not needed. Along with the difference between an ICE vehicle and an EV has no process change attached, like switching from a keyboard to a touchscreen for typing. Maybe the switch to EV from ICE is more like the old Leaf commercial in a dramatic/exaggerated way.

 

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^ cool commercial :thumb:...

...now steal their ad company
>:)

&
multi/spamming threads
Remember.....Tesla has over 450,000 Model 3 paid reservations to fulfill globally. To put that in perspective, there were just over 1.3 Million vehicles sold in the US in October. This means that Tesla has over1/3 of the entire US auto market in paid reservations for just one EV. With about 1,800 new reservations being added daily. The rest of the auto industry see this and are trying to capitalize on the tremendous pent-up demand for a nice looking 200+ mile EV. So far the industry has only been willing to offer small utilitarian ecoboxes and hatchbacks. But that's all about to change...
I think the mainstream BEV will largely start with...
...the hand-me-downs of the LUX-e market -- eventually -- after the richest pickings are spoken-for

I'd like to see Lincoln skim the CREAM off of Tesla's over 450,000 Model 3 paid reservations
.
 

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Discussion Starter #220
It's really amazing how quickly electrification has changed the expectation of the small, midsize and large sedans and CUV.

As good as Tesla models are from an exterior, technology and powertrain perspective, it is in added a nicer interior that will raise the bar. And this new crop of 300 miles EVs under $30k will be the rebirth of the sedan and 5-door. This is an interesting social experiment playing out. Buried in the repeated articles about consumers moving to CUVs, there are now consumers in blogs talking about switching back to sedans. Mostly because the sedans cost about $7k less than the same class CUV, the sedan is easier to drive in the city, more fun to drive, and the fact that they figured out they didn't need all that extra space costing them gas mileage. What seems to be happening is that once consumers get over 'having what the neighbor has' they figure it's not worth it. But at the same time, the larger families over 2 kids thought the CUV SUV was a good fit, but those the single, empty nesters and 1-2 kids don't really see the need.

Which is why I think car companies who are about to launch a new 200-300+ mile EV in the next year, had better offer a sedan/5-door because that's where the market is going. Which is why I am hoping Ford's new small CUV is more like a 5-door sports sedan(in the Focus family) with a version for Lincoln.

Ford will also need to offer at least 2 battery pack sizes, 200+ and 300+ until 400+ arrives. While also offering at least three different motor powers, along with FWD, RWD or AWD.
 
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