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Discussion Starter #61
What they should be working on is price reduction and quick-charging networks, which I believe are being slowly addressed .


Range is still a factor for vacation/long distance drives. Pairing charging stations with fast food joints would alleviate the issue for some, but not all.
Wireless or even fast charging is where the technology is, not range. Range is mostly a function of battery size (cost balance).
The much cheaper Focus EV may only have a 118mile range, but you can recharge it to 75% capacity (80 mile range) in only 30 minutes. IMO, that is far more useful for typical daily use. Imagine that someone else in your house used the car one night, forgot to plug it in, and you look on your phone app in the morning and it is too low to get to work. By the time you get ready and eat breakfast, you will have plenty of charge to get to work. That’s what I call stress free BEV life. Let’s face it, few EV owners are traveling with their small EV, when they can just rent stress and anxiety free.
 

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Sorry, GM is just throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks (ELR, cough). Ford is conservatively approaching this huge paradigm shift, and I believe their strategy will be a great one. And you gotta love the news about 7 of 13 new products. Yeah, I call that some kind of leadership.
How is the Chevy Volt and Bolt doing?
 

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How is the Chevy Volt and Bolt doing?
Volt plug-in hybrid had it's best sales month ever at 3,691 for Dec, and 24,739 for the year. It's the #1 selling plug-in hybrid, followed by the Fusion Energi.

The new Bolt had sales of 579 in it's first month, selling in only two states so far. Outselling the eGolf and right behind the i3.
 

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What they should be working on is price reduction and quick-charging networks, which I believe are being slowly addressed .


Range is still a factor for vacation/long distance drives. Pairing charging stations with fast food joints would alleviate the issue for some, but not all.
Well, with over 80% of all driving being done via a commute, less than 60 miles round trip, the updated 115 mile FFE and the new 200+ EVs would more than exceed the range needs of the vast majority of drivers on a daily basis. Which means that charging at home, at night while you sleep, offers a full 'tank' every day.

Then there is the concept that 'what if I forget to charge my car, what will I do?' Well, the same thing you would do if you forgot to buy gas and ran it to empty. Plug in the EV and let it charge. Or call AAA and wait an hour or so until they bought gasoline to your house...lol.

Then remembering that 'many' people tend to take their big SUV when going on a long road trip. Seeing that it's needed for all the people and luggage, etc. This would indicated that 300+ mile trip EVs are the smallest demographic, that may require a public charger.

I haven't pulled the trigger on an EV yet, because the tech is expanding so fast. Waiting for a Model E with 300+ miles. Never, ever plan on using a public charger, unless I take my once ever 5 year or so road trip.

The thing is that many people can't get the idea of driving to a gas station for fuel out of their system. Thinking they need to do the same for an ev. But forgetting that every night the EV is recharging to be 'full' each morning with more range than necessary for several days. This is why the focus on charging stations are along interstates, for cross country trips. But for over 80% of the driving public....they won't even be used.
 

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...while the move is being hailed by some as a victory for the president-elect, a closer look at the announcement, made by senior Ford executives at a suburban Detroit assembly plant, did not actually reverse the central decision the automaker announced last April. Small car production, such as the compact Focus model, will still move to Mexico, just into an existing Ford plant in Hermosillo.
Ford just moving one model to Mexico (next North American Focus) according to the press release instead of moving all small models is definitely a result of expanding an existing plant instead of building a new one with more capacity.
Looks like the electrified C-Max will be gone and the small electric SUV will be made in Flat Rock, Michigan.
 

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Well, with over 80% of all driving being done via a commute, less than 60 miles round trip, the updated 115 mile FFE and the new 200+ EVs would more than exceed the range needs of the vast majority of drivers on a daily basis. Which means that charging at home, at night while you sleep, offers a full 'tank' every day.

Then there is the concept that 'what if I forget to charge my car, what will I do?' Well, the same thing you would do if you forgot to buy gas and ran it to empty. Plug in the EV and let it charge. Or call AAA and wait an hour or so until they bought gasoline to your house...lol.

Then remembering that 'many' people tend to take their big SUV when going on a long road trip. Seeing that it's needed for all the people and luggage, etc. This would indicated that 300+ mile trip EVs are the smallest demographic, that may require a public charger.

I haven't pulled the trigger on an EV yet, because the tech is expanding so fast. Waiting for a Model E with 300+ miles. Never, ever plan on using a public charger, unless I take my once ever 5 year or so road trip.

The thing is that many people can't get the idea of driving to a gas station for fuel out of their system. Thinking they need to do the same for an ev. But forgetting that every night the EV is recharging to be 'full' each morning with more range than necessary for several days. This is why the focus on charging stations are along interstates, for cross country trips. But for over 80% of the driving public....they won't even be used.
Public chargers are the key to EV deployment, home chargers are a poor match for Big battery EVs because they cannot not provide enough power to charge the vehicles in a reasonable amount of time. home chargers will become the secondary way to charge you car, mainly used to top off the battery, and battery and maintain cabin and battery temperature.

Example the Focus EV charges at a Rate of 6KWH per hour on it's 30 amp level 2 charger

A 300 mile EV like the Tesla model X takes 15 hours to charge on a 30 amp (14.4KW) level 2 charger, 8:42 on a 60 amp (28.8KW)charger, 5:47 on a 90 amp (43KW) charger, only 1:15 on a 90KW supercharger.

with a standard 110v 15 amp charger it would take over a day to charge a 100KWh battery.

With level 3 DC charging, charge time drops to less than an hour, and with 350KW chargers you can get a 50% charge in less than 15 minutes.

How many people can afford to install a 90 amp circuit in their homes, how many homes can accept a 90 amp circuit? in comparison public chargers can be built to handle up to 350Kw at much high voltages and lower cost than you can with a home charger.

this issue is made worse for EVs with larger batteries, in theory a 300mile EV based on the F150 could require a 180KWh battery, requiring 2-3 days to charge on a level 3 charger.

I don't think the average person would invest in a 42KW charger for their home, unless that investment would add value to their home.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
Public chargers are the key to EV deployment, home chargers are a poor match for Big battery EVs because they cannot not provide enough power to charge the vehicles in a reasonable amount of time. home chargers will become the secondary way to charge you car, mainly used to top off the battery, and battery and maintain cabin and battery temperature.

Example the Focus EV charges at a Rate of 6KWH per hour on it's 30 amp level 2 charger

A 300 mile EV like the Tesla model X takes 15 hours to charge on a 30 amp (14.4KW) level 2 charger, 8:42 on a 60 amp (28.8KW)charger, 5:47 on a 90 amp (43KW) charger, only 1:15 on a 90KW supercharger.

with a standard 110v 15 amp charger it would take over a day to charge a 100KWh battery.

With level 3 DC charging, charge time drops to less than an hour, and with 350KW chargers you can get a 50% charge in less than 15 minutes.

How many people can afford to install a 90 amp circuit in their homes, how many homes can accept a 90 amp circuit? in comparison public chargers can be built to handle up to 350Kw at much high voltages and lower cost than you can with a home charger.

this issue is made worse for EVs with larger batteries, in theory a 300mile EV based on the F150 could require a 180KWh battery, requiring 2-3 days to charge on a level 3 charger.

I don't think the average person would invest in a 42KW charger for their home, unless that investment would add value to their home.
New Focus BEV gets a faster DC charger (50Kw) that can charge 80% battery capacity in 30 min. That equates to a 100 mile range. In fact, I would like to see automakers advertise their charging rates with range per unit of charge time. One can of course calculate that, based on battery and charger, but it would be nice to see. in the case of the Focus BEV, it would look like 200 miles per hour charged, or 200 M/hr.
 

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New Focus BEV gets a faster DC charger (50Kw) that can charge 80% battery capacity in 30 min. That equates to a 100 mile range. In fact, I would like to see automakers advertise their charging rates with range per unit of charge time. One can of course calculate that, based on battery and charger, but it would be nice to see. in the case of the Focus BEV, it would look like 200 miles per hour charged, or 200 M/hr.
So imagine an alloy body on the Focus EV with a battery pack double the size under the floor.
We then have a 250 mile range BEV that recharges to 80% within an hour...

The crazy part is that governments are rewarding Tesla for making heavy high end BEVs with
large heavy long range batteries that put those car out of the price range of many buyers.

Perhaps we need a volume manufacturer to zero in on the whole package and look at
refining the balance between vehicle size/weight/utility, battery size/range and power.
Things like magnesium frame/shell and carbon fiber panels could actually put BEVs
within the price range of regular buyers and replace a lot more conventional vehicles.
 

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So imagine an alloy body on the Focus EV with a battery pack double the size under the floor...

...Perhaps we need a volume manufacturer to zero in on the whole package and look at
refining the balance between vehicle size/weight/utility, battery size/range and power.
Things like magnesium frame/shell and carbon fiber panels could actually put BEVs
within the price range of regular buyers and replace a lot more conventional vehicles.
:thumb:
reading at BON, I was thinking the "Model E" is gonna be that 300m electrified SCuv
- cuz a SCuv can have more room (under the floor?) for batteries
- & carCars aren't in favor anyway :angel
&
was also thinking it could be a composite/alloy version of something more mainstream
- maybe/necessarily? built on the same assemblyline?
.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
So imagine an alloy body on the Focus EV with a battery pack double the size under the floor.
We then have a 250 mile range BEV that recharges to 80% within an hour...

The crazy part is that governments are rewarding Tesla for making heavy high end BEVs with
large heavy long range batteries that put those car out of the price range of many buyers.

Perhaps we need a volume manufacturer to zero in on the whole package and look at
refining the balance between vehicle size/weight/utility, battery size/range and power.
Things like magnesium frame/shell and carbon fiber panels could actually put BEVs
within the price range of regular buyers and replace a lot more conventional vehicles.
I believe that is what Ford is trying to do. That has been their mantra since Day One at Ford, affordable mobility for the masses.
Although I must say, I am scratching my head as to how they will do it while making it affordable.
If Ford can produce a slightly larger vehicle than the Focus with 300 mile range and fast charging at a price less than the Bolt which is at $38K, and most importantly, not lose $9K per sale, then I for one will be quite impressed.
 

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The Volt sold 24,739 in 2016
The Bolt sold 579 in Dec (only month for 2016)
The Spark EV sold 3035 in 2016

For just comparison
The C-Max sold 19,834 in 2016
The Focus Electric sold 901 in 2016
The Fusion Energi sold 15,938 in 2016
Any numbers on the Malibu Hybrid?
 

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I believe that is what Ford is trying to do. That has been their mantra since Day One at Ford, affordable mobility for the masses.
Although I must say, I am scratching my head as to how they will do it while making it affordable.
If Ford can produce a slightly larger vehicle than the Focus with 300 mile range and fast charging at a price less than the Bolt which is at $38K, and most importantly, not lose $9K per sale, then I for one will be quite impressed.
That's is my issue with this report.

Ford should be Focused on parity, not supremacy, or they risk having their Press release writing checks their product Development can not cash, Again.

the perfect example of this was the original Fusion, it was design to match the Accord and Camry not beat them in every metric. The 2nd generation fusion Elevated the fight and was able to be near the top of its class.

under-promise and over-deliver
 

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Discussion Starter #76
That's is my issue with this report.

Ford should be Focused on parity, not supremacy, or they risk having their Press release writing checks their product Development can not cash, Again.

the perfect example of this was the original Fusion, it was design to match the Accord and Camry not beat them in every metric. The 2nd generation fusion Elevated the fight and was able to be near the top of its class.

under-promise and over-deliver
As far as I can tell, Ford has not made any claims of supremacy. Just metrics they plan on achieving.
I see nothing wrong with that.
 

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What i would like to see from ford isn't a Single home-run system (like the current hybrid Transaxle) but a suite of systems that is flexible and adabalbe to meet the demands from mild hybrids, to full hybrds to Plug in hybrids.

Ford Announced a collaboration with Getrag in mexico on transmissions over 2 years ago.



http://www.getrag.com/media/media/text/cti_2015/2015_12_GETRAG_Lecture-Modular-Hybrid-Transmission-Kit.pdf

This would allow for 48volt mild hybridization, and Full hybridization using the same basic architecture, that doesn't compromise steady state highway efficiency.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
What i would like to see from ford isn't a Single home-run system (like the current hybrid Transaxle) but a suite of systems that is flexible and adabalbe to meet the demands from mild hybrids, to full hybrds to Plug in hybrids.
That has always been their plan.
 

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* In addition, Ford announces that its global utility lineup will be the company’s first hybrids powered by EcoBoost® rather than naturally aspirated engines, furthering improving performance and fuel economy.

NG Expedition/Navigator, NG Escape/MKC, NG Explorer/Aviator
a Ford email sent me to a site with a graphic (sorry if previously posted)

for some reason (maybe that "6&7" in one header?) started me thinking of a Hybrid PolicExplorer being counted separate from a PlugIn PolicExplorer
which
led to 3 more: retail Explorer Hybrid, PlugIn, and Aviator PlugIn
+
ExpeditionHybrid & NaviHybrid (from F-150)

leaves only 1 more :frown2:
edit: if the #1autonomouse vehicle could be Edge-based,
maybe the ^remainder is MKX-based?

 

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^...well Ford did say they were electrifying their high volume trucks and SUVs, and the hybrid F-150/Mustang would already have the RWD hybrid tech ready(which I am sure Ford would want to maximize it's use) for a Police version of a hybrid Expedition and F-150.

Oh....that RWD hybrid tech can make it into the Transit Van as well here in the states.

I would think next gen Explorer would definitely be offered as hybrid as well.

Remember this...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160421/OEM04/160429965/ford-f-150-ready-for-pursuit-with-special-service-package

and a pursuit rated Mustang has been in the works globally.
 
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