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Yeah I'd like to see the Navi with a good bit more power than the Expedition. I know it has more now, but the more the merrier. Plus I really expect Lincoln to get a V8 within the next few years, something based off the 3.0T of about 4 liters in displacement.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
In thinking about the new Navigator, I’ve come to 3 scenarios to ponder in its redesign...


  • Follows current path of being same body as Expedition but different nose and unique interior.
  • Follows similar path of Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute, where it shares same glass, door openings as Expedition but with unique surface sheet metal.
  • Follows path of all recent new Lincolns, with completely unique sheet metal, glass, and roofline.
Obviously, scenario C is the best of all! Imagine the impact of Lincoln having a totally unique large SUV compared to the Ford, whereas Cadillac still uses the basic Chevy Tahoe for their flagship!

As for looks, since the same basic shape has been on the market since 1997 or so, I doubt they will make much of an effort to make the all new model look anything like the current model. The question really is how will they translate the newest Lincoln design cues…I doubt it will be soft looking like the MKC/MKX, right?


I expect the integrated electric door handles will be used, since this is a very unique Lincoln design cue.


One far out idea is, what if they incorporate suicide doors on the new Navigator?!?
 

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^ :thumb: @spudz64

...I really expect Lincoln to get a V8 within the next few years, something based off the 3.0T of about 4 liters in displacement.
new v8 asap/while still legal = YES, but please no 60° v8s

& update after a GMI convo
^ "good for 450/450" ...AT LEAST :thumb:
imho a Suv can get away with a bit more 'sport', less stump-pulling, than the F-150...
500hp would be a 'nice' Navi
&
a Conti 3.5T (if/ever) oughta be ~550hp = halfway from Raptor's 450 to GT's 650
imho :joyous:
 

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In thinking about the new Navigator, I’ve come to 3 scenarios to ponder in its redesign...


  • Follows current path of being same body as Expedition but different nose and unique interior.
  • Follows similar path of Ford Escape/MazdaTribute, where it shares same glass, door openings as Expedition but with unique surface sheet metal.
  • Follows path of all recent new Lincolns, withcompletely unique sheetmetal, glass, and roofline.
Obviously, scenario C is the best of all! Imagine the impact of Lincoln having a totally unique large SUV compared to the Ford, whereas Cadillac still uses the basic Chevy Tahoe for their flagship!

As for looks, since the same basic shape has been on the market since 1997 or so, I doubt they will make much of an effort to make the all new model look anything like the current model. The question really is how will they translate the newest Lincoln design cues…I doubt it will be soft looking like the MKC/MKX, right? I expect the integrated electric door handleswill be used, since this is a very unique Lincoln design cue. One far out ideais, what if they incorporate suicide doors on the new Navigator?!?

From what I've been able to gather, it's honestly somewhere between your B an C scenario.

I know nothing about the concept for what its worth.
 

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^ :thumb: @spudz64


new v8 asap/while still legal = YES, but please no 60° v8s

& update after a GMI convo
500hp would be a 'nice' Navi
The number envy is ridiculous around here! :x

If a new, significantly lighter Navigator is anywhere near 450/450 in top trim that'll be enough for 99.9% of buyers in that segment. There comes a point where mo'power isn't necessarily mo'better!

&
a Conti 3.5T (if/ever) oughta be ~550hp = halfway from Raptor's 450 to GT's 650
imho :joyous:
This right here is absurd. There is nothing about the Continental that says high performance, zip, zero, nada, by design. CD4 was not designed to accept the 3.5EB/T so the Continental will not get that engine. CD4 was also not designed to be a high performance platform, and Continental will not be either.

It is simply insane that we've come to believe that 400/400 is somehow only reasonable as an entry level. That kind of power, with the EBs low end power delivery will make the CD4 based Continental very quick, it'll have way more than enough roll on power for passing, it'll be fast, it'll be downright fun to drive, but it will not now, not ever, be a performance sedan.

Let's have us a little perspective here people, just because you can build a 500+HP engine doesn't mean you need that much in every application. There may come a day when the Lincoln brand can support such a vehicle, today is not that day, nor will tomorrow be.
 

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Yeah I'd like to see the Navi with a good bit more power than the Expedition. I know it has more now, but the more the merrier. Plus I really expect Lincoln to get a V8 within the next few years, something based off the 3.0T of about 4 liters in displacement.
Our brand champion was told in Detroit last year that Lincoln has no plan to ever have a V8 in a vehicle again.
 

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...It is simply insane that we've come to believe that 400/400 is somehow only reasonable as an entry level...
...Let's have us a little perspective here people...
as little perspective as possible! :thumb:
&
500-550hp is only reasonable as an entry level
...Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
:Grinch:

But we need 500hp to make America great again :)
:thumb: :clap: :thumb:
 

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not so sure about 500+hp (I would like it, really really like it) but IMO the Navi just need to offer a V8 option.
What the 3.5L T with 450hp and the base 5.0l V8.
The Exoy can have the 5.0l V8 and the 2.7L V6 EB
 

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People still want and expect very powerful offerings in these big luxury SUVs. They need to offer a powerful V8 as an option, if they want Navigator to be highly desirable again. Ideally, it needs to have somewhere between 575-hp to 625-hp.
On the V8 thing I don't agree, but I know there are a lot of people who still expect that so it'll be interesting to see if they cater to that demographic.

Regarding 575-625HP, what volume, premium full size SUV has that much? If you're going to talk about things like the high end Porsche Cayenne's I'll only say Lincoln is not, and should not be chasing that market with a Navigator. The Escalade is doing big business at huge profit margins with 420/460.

Lincoln will not benefit from these ridiculous power numbers even if they could offer them, people are not buying full size, body on frame trucks to go fast, they're not towing 5th wheel trailers.
 

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On the V8 thing I don't agree, but I know there are a lot of people who still expect that so it'll be interesting to see if they cater to that demographic.

Regarding 575-625HP, what volume, premium full size SUV has that much? If you're going to talk about things like the high end Porsche Cayenne's I'll only say Lincoln is not, and should not be chasing that market with a Navigator. The Escalade is doing big business at huge profit margins with 420/460.

Lincoln will not benefit from these ridiculous power numbers even if they could offer them, people are not buying full size, body on frame trucks to go fast, they're not towing 5th wheel trailers.
Bentley, Land Rover, and Mercedes-Benz offer shamelessly powerful engines in their big tanks. I agree they're overkill, but that's what luxury is about. If Cadillac offered a $250k V16 Escalade tomorrow, there would be a very long waiting list.
 

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Bentley, Land Rover, and Mercedes-Benz offer shamelessly powerful engines in their big tanks. I agree they're overkill, but that's what luxury is about. If Cadillac offered a $250k V16 Escalade tomorrow, there would be a very long waiting list.
I do believe that a total of zero of those vehicles are body on frame trucks. They're tall, thoroughly modern cars and as such it's possible to tune them in the same manner as you would a sports sedan, though with the high CG disadvantage. And none of those crazy high powered CUVs is a volume vehicle.

I highly doubt there would be a long line of people waiting to spend $250k on any Cadillac, certainly not a V16 Escalade. There would certainly be a select few who would pay that outrageous amount for an outrageous truck, but it would likely never be enough to pay for the development. If it were Cadillac would build it, and they won't.

And finally, how asinine would it be for Lincoln, the 'Quiet Luxury' company who has disavowed chasing the performance crown to go completely against the image they're trying to build by building a hot rod SUV? It would be so completely out of place in a Lincoln dealer.

If Lincoln were looking to play in that high performance CUV market then the Navigator isn't the platform. Their hope would be with the D6 Aviator which is going to be a far better platform which will likely be within spitting distance in terms of size with the Range Rover.
 

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Current Navigator is 460ftlbs in a V6.
What large SUV's need is an abundance of torque, and I am sure the upgraded V6 can top that amount.
But the fact that it will be 10 speeds and a fraction of it's previous weight changes things drastically. And I do not think that offering monster engines elevates the luxury level or perception of the brand. At least not in any meaningful manner. Luxury brands did just fine with heavy vehicles and 200 hp engines back in the day. Does not matter what one or two brands do either.
 

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I do believe that a total of zero of those vehicles are body on frame trucks. They're tall, thoroughly modern cars and as such it's possible to tune them in the same manner as you would a sports sedan, though with the high CG disadvantage.

I highly doubt there would be a long line of people waiting to spend $250k on any Cadillac, certainly not a V16 Escalade. There would certainly be a select few who would pay that outrageous amount for an outrageous truck, but it would likely never be enough to pay for the development. If it were Cadillac would build it, and they won't.

And finally, how asinine would it be for Lincoln, the 'Quiet Luxury' company who has disavowed chasing the performance crown to go completely against the image they're trying to build by building a hot rod SUV? It would be so completely out of place in a Lincoln dealer.

If Lincoln were looking to play in that high performance CUV market then the Navigator isn't the platform. Their hope would be with the D6 Aviator which is going to be a far better platform which will likely be within spitting distance in terms of size with the Range Rover.
The G63 is body-on-frame. The Bentayga and the Range Rover don't deliver the typical "raw" type of performance but the "discreet" type, for the lack of a better word. Lincoln is actually interested in performance but not the brash and inelegant type. Rolls-Royce is another example of a brand practicing the "discreet" type of performance with their latest Wraith.
 

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:thumb: ^
This is the most powerful Rolls-Royce car ever
autoweek.com -
July 8, 2015

Wraith St. James is more than adequate in the powerplant department
There was a time when Rolls-Royce listed the performance figures of its cars as "adequate." Granted, that was an era when most other automakers' V8s were connected to three-speed Slush-O-Matics and struggled to make more than 200 hp, and the promise of adequate power from Crewe let everyone's imagination run wild (even though deep down inside everyone suspected Rolls-Royces were designed to provide stupendous torque rather than instant power delivery).
We are in a different era...
...Say hello to the most powerful car to roll out of any Rolls-Royce factory: the Wraith St. James edition.
Powered by a 6.6-liter V12, this version of the Wraith produces 623 hp and 590 lb-ft of torque, boasting a 0 to 60 mph sprint time of 4.4 seconds. That's pretty brisk in any book, but this book weighs over 5,000 pounds. Even so, these power figures represent just an 8 hp bump over the standard version of the Wraith, while the torque output stays the same, all of it on tap from just 1,500 to 5,500 rpm...


...how asinine would it be for Lincoln, the 'Quiet Luxury' company who has disavowed chasing the performance crown to go completely against the image they're trying to build by building a hot rod SUV? It would be so completely out of place in a Lincoln dealer...
anyone else think that "Quiet Luxury" is just a(nother) temporary marketing phrase(/phase)?

...If Lincoln were looking to play in that high performance CUV market then the alumiNavi isn't the platform...
fixed ^^^


SP1966 said:
...I'll only say Lincoln is not, and should not be chasing that market...
a bit of persnickety word-cop...
imho Cadillac isn't just chasing the Germans, they're trying to BEAT them! BIG Diff imho!
And I'm NOT suggesting that for Lincoln.
otoh/side-of-chasing,
I could see Lincoln expanding their palette to "dress appropriately" even without indulging in the equivalent of haute couture extravagance... IE ...as long as something is ready-to-wear on the Ford shelves :shrug:
+
for ROI-extravagance, may I point in the direction of the GT or VooDoo??

.
 

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I'll boil my thoughts down to this final post on this subject.... for tonight. :)

Cadillac outkicked their coverage with their latest and greatest, ATS, CTS, and likely CT6. They went all in to beat the Germans and they largely succeeded, at least in some respects. Unfortunately for GM investors the Cadillac brand wasn't ready to support sedans in those price ranges, price ranges largely dictated by the development and material build costs needed to compete on that level.

One thing Lincoln has done well, be it by design or by luck, they've not put out vehicles that cost more than people are willing to pay for a 'Lincoln'. There may come a time when there's a market willing to pay for 600HP Lincoln CUVs, that time is not now. It's fun to dream big on a forum, but if Lincoln were trying to fulfill those dreams at this point they'd likely put themselves out of business. Lincoln has to build their stature with people who can afford, and will pay for Lincolns of today before they can aim for the stratosphere.

Finally, a single outrageous Navigator will have almost zero positive effect on the larger, vanilla Lincoln lineup. That Navigator will not attract people to Lincoln showrooms that would even consider what they have to offer outside of the 'Gator. A halo vehicle has to have some legitimate connection to the brand's identity, and Lincoln's brand is not identified by 600HP SUVs.
 

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anyone else think that "Quiet Luxury" is just a(nother) temporary marketing phrase(/phase)?
Of course it is, all marketing phrases have limited life spans, even the great ones like 'The Ultimate Driving Machine'. On the other hand if you're suggesting they chose 'Quiet Luxury' out of necessity rather than because it's their ultimate focus I'd say you're probably right given what they have to work with.

for ROI-extravagance, may I point in the direction of the GT or VooDoo??
Not totally sure what you're getting at here. Ford has made performance a key aspect of their brand thus halo performance cars do benefit the whole, to what extent I don't know.

If you're at all suggesting using Voodoo in a Lincoln I must say **** NO! Voodoo is raw, Voodoo is powerful, Voodoo is fun, Voodoo is not refined enough for luxury car use.
 

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SP, I like the first parts of your posts ^ & ^^ more than the endings :angel

SP said:
...Finally, a single outrageous Navigator will have almost zero positive effect on the larger, vanilla Lincoln lineup. That Navigator will not attract people to Lincoln showrooms that would even consider what they have to offer outside of the 'Gator. A halo vehicle has to have some legitimate connection to the brand's identity, and Lincoln's brand is not identified by 600HP SUVs.
SP said:
...Not totally sure what you're getting at here. Ford has made performance a key aspect of their brand thus halo performance cars do benefit the whole, to what extent I don't know...
TY for the wording:
I'm suggesting there are aspects/qualities equivalent to Ford's penchant for performance for Lincoln that must be identified/found
& refined/concentrated
THEN budgeted for!​
even when there's no direct-ROI

SP said:
...If you're at all suggesting using Voodoo in a Lincoln I must say **** NO! Voodoo is raw, Voodoo is powerful, Voodoo is fun, Voodoo is not refined enough for luxury car use.
:thumb: NEVER .....afaik
.
 
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