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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-04/the-lincoln-not-the-cadillac-is-detroits-surprise-luxury-hit

“Cadillac is back,” crowed Bob Ferguson, the executive in charge of GM’s (GM) luxury marque, in announcing yesterday that sales were up 40 percent over last May. Cadillac’s year-to-date sales are up an impressive 38 percent, the biggest increase since 1976. Much of this is driven by Cadillac’s new entry-level ATS, which won Car of the Year at the 2013 Detroit auto show; 70 percent of those buying the ATS are first-time Cadillac customers. All of this has been greeted in Detroit as welcome news that one American carmaker, at least, has rediscovered how, after decades of missteps, to make a luxury car that gets American hearts racing.

Look a little closer, though, and it appears that carmaker isn’t GM, but its rival Ford (F), maker of the unheralded Lincoln—a brand with an aesthetic that remains a work in progress and an inscrutable ad campaign (featuring, in one commercial, an actor portraying Abraham Lincoln). Last month, the MKZ, Lincoln’s own midsize entry-level luxury sedan, narrowly outsold the ATS, even though Ford offered far less in sales incentives. According to Edmunds data, the average ATS buyer was offered almost $4,000 all told to sign, more than twice what MKZ buyers required.

Overall Lincoln sales remain anemic, but the MKZ is a surprise hit. Why might that be? Bloomberg automotive analyst Kevin Tynan points out that the MKZ is larger than the ATS, which is basically a compact luxury car, and buyers looking to buy a luxury car tend to want something bigger.
 

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Mercury C557
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Thanks for posting the article, Wings


imho it's semi-interesting how the writer thinks the Fiesta will lead to Lincoln sales
(yeah, slight exaggeration)
but
imho this might be more about GM
in that
with their multi-Brand structure kinks-quirks-&-quandaries,
AND their (former?) one-dimensional Brand definitions (old rant of mine);
Cadillac in particular is bringing out overly "narrow" models
-- ATS: too strictly targeted at 3-series
-- ELR: a coupe? really? (please see the MKE posts via my sig)
-- CTS: finally TOO BIG to target the 5er?
which just may not have enough "blast area" to take out the competition
 

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apples to oranges
 

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Discussion Starter #4
^
No way.

The people spending the $$$$ don't differentiate like we do. They shop based on content, value, style, and some even for name. Lincoln and Cadillac have competed far longer than any of us have been around.

And that said, the MKZ is a great car for the money.
ATS is not any better.
 

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The people spending the $$$$ don't differentiate like we do. They shop based on content, value, style, and some even for name. Lincoln and Cadillac have competed far longer than any of us have been around.
Among the two brands traditional customer base I agree that they may well shop by comparing $$$$ rather than segment. But when it comes to conquest customers, the ones that are going to drive new business I would disagree for the most part though again some will shop their pocket book rather than segment/style/performance.

And that said, the MKZ is a great car for the money.
ATS is not any better.
This is one of those statements that is 100% true, and yet depending on what you're shopping for it could also be 100% false. Those who want more car (size/room) are likely to agree, those who want more traditional performance are likely to disagree.

The "apples to oranges" comment is IMO very accurate in the big picture view while not always being relevant.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Among the two brands traditional customer base I agree that they may well shop by comparing $$$$ rather than segment. But when it comes to conquest customers, the ones that are going to drive new business I would disagree for the most part though again some will shop their pocket book rather than segment/style/performance.



This is one of those statements that is 100% true, and yet depending on what you're shopping for it could also be 100% false. Those who want more car (size/room) are likely to agree, those who want more traditional performance are likely to disagree.

The "apples to oranges" comment is IMO very accurate in the big picture view while not always being relevant.

Traditional performance?

I don't know, the 300hp AWD MKZ with performance tires, is no slouch and can run with that ATS on the street side by side. Would it beat it on a track? Don't know, and I would gamble that nobody will ever find out either....short of magazine journalists.
 

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Lincoln has been selling the MKZ since the super bowl and has just delivered all those cars since they have been delay after delay. I like the MKZ but I would expect you will see about 2,000 sales a month going out now.
 

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Mercury C557
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Lincoln has been selling the MKZ since the super bowl and has just delivered all those cars since they have been delay after delay. I like the MKZ but I would expect you will see about 2,000 sales a month going out now.
I truly, realistically believe the 2,000-or-less months are GONE**

MKZ sales
3,490 May 2013
4,012 Apr
2,360 Mar
_,945 Feb
_,453 Jan 2013
1,630 Dec 2012
1,335 Nov
1,614 Oct
2,575 Sep
3,327 Aug
3,033 Jul
3,137 Jun
2,458 May
1,863 Apr
2,932 Mar
2,487 Feb
1,662 Jan 2012
2,435 Dec 2011
2,083 Nov
1,953 Oct
1,936 Sep
2,337 Aug
2,869 Jul
2,360 Jun
2,523 May
2,546 Apr
2,546 Mar
1,775 Feb
1,574 Jan 2011
2,502 Dec 2010
2,567 Nov
1,850 Oct
1,254 Sep
1,558 Aug
1,590 Jul
1,800 Jun
2,040 May
1,817 Apr
1,817 Mar
1,761 Feb
1,340 Jan 2010

and when the Nano v6 comes out we could well be over 4,000 for good



** barring another BOTCH
 

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Traditional performance?

I don't know, the 300hp AWD MKZ with performance tires, is no slouch and can run with that ATS on the street side by side. Would it beat it on a track? Don't know, and I would gamble that nobody will ever find out either....short of magazine journalists.
I understand what you're saying, but bottom line, no FWD or FW biased AWD will every match the overall feel of a great rear drive sports car, never. It may well be a great car in its own right, but it will never feel as good as a great car like the the BMW 3 series to anybody who likes a real drivers car. So when I talk about the performance between the MKZ and the ATS thats what I'm talking about. The MKZ probably outperforms the needs, desires, and expectations of 90% of the buyers in that market, but to those of us in that other 10% it will always come up a bit short in that area.

I know you work for Ford and are a real Ford homer, and as a Ford guy I say that as a compliment, but no amount of tuning or horsepower will ever transform the MKZ into what I want it to be. And we both know thats okay because what I want is just around the corner!! To bad there is no way in he!! I'll be able to afford it.

:banghead:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I understand what you're saying, but bottom line, no FWD or FW biased AWD will every match the overall feel of a great rear drive sports car, never. It may well be a great car in its own right, but it will never feel as good as a great car like the the BMW 3 series to anybody who likes a real drivers car. So when I talk about the performance between the MKZ and the ATS thats what I'm talking about. The MKZ probably outperforms the needs, desires, and expectations of 90% of the buyers in that market, but to those of us in that other 10% it will always come up a bit short in that area.

I know you work for Ford and are a real Ford homer, and as a Ford guy I say that as a compliment, but no amount of tuning or horsepower will ever transform the MKZ into what I want it to be. And we both know thats okay because what I want is just around the corner!! To bad there is no way in he!! I'll be able to afford it.

:banghead:
Just to be clear, RWD in itself does not guarantee anything and AWD will typically handle better than both, all else being equal, and for obvious reasons.
Case in point, the SHO AWD and Charger RT with RWD are about equal in weight, and about equal when thrown on a track. Actually I think the SHO with perf pack out-handles it slightly. It comes down then to suspension tuning (compliant or firm, sway bar size, etc) and primarily tires.
The ATS manages to be slightly more agile because it is smaller and lighter - but few will appreciate that on the street.
The MKZ is roomier, and EVERYONE will appreciate that.

So again, the benefits of a lighter smaller ATS come out on the track PRIMARILY.
 

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Conquest rate for non-Ford vehicles on the MKZ?
This is the point. For Cadillac, the ATS is working good, because is conquesting customers never want to buy a Cadillac. Lincoln needs something like the ATS...
 

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Just to be clear, RWD in itself does not guarantee anything and AWD will typically handle better than both, all else being equal, and for obvious reasons.
I agree that a poorly executed RWD will not be better than a well executed FWD/AWD.

Case in point, the SHO AWD and Charger RT with RWD are about equal in weight, and about equal when thrown on a track.
I think you're missing my point about what I, and many people like, and its not something that will always show up in slalom numbers. Its a feel, two cars may preform the same statistically while one is fun doing it and the other isn't. I've driven many great, fun cars and while some of them have been FWD they have not felt as good to me as a good RWD car, none of them. Thats not to say they weren't good to great in their own right, but to me the feel was wrong and the enjoyment of driving them was less. The feel of a vehicle cannot be statistically quantified.

An example could be the Subaru BRZ or Mazda Miata, both relatively underpowered cars from a statistical performance perspective and yet both are lauded for how the feel, how much fun they are to drive. Yes the Focus ST is lauded for much the same reason, and I agree with that, but while it is also fun to drive, it is in a very different manner than the prior two cars.

Simply physics will never allow a FWD or FW biased car to feel as good/fun to many of us as a good RWD car. That doesn't make the good FWD car worthless, just not everybody's cup of tea.

The ATS manages to be slightly more agile because it is smaller and lighter - but few will appreciate that on the street.
The MKZ is roomier, and EVERYONE will appreciate that.
My point exactly, as I posted above 90% will find the cars to be similar while the MKZ may well provide more of what they're looking for. As I also posted above those of us in that other 10% will likely find a lot to love about the MKZ, but driving it is highly unlikely to put the same smile on our faces that the ATS will.

I don't think we're really disagreeing much here, but your homerism appears to make it impossible for you to accept that there are some way in which the MKZ will never be as good.
 

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Cadillac's sales are NOT UP - the ATS is pulling CTS sales - ATS impact in May was a net increase in 800 units - less impact than the VaporVolt. The ADDITION of nameplates resulted in sales gains - a very dishonest way to increase sales - it is like when a new Wendy's is opened - factoring in its sales distorts the overall effectiveness of the brand - that is why you see the "stores opened 1 year or more" as a caveat when reporting sales. The XTS added sales because it didn't exist last year. The only real sale increases came from trucks at Cadillac - there was no real sales increase from the existing model lineup.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I agree that a poorly executed RWD will not be better than a well executed FWD/AWD.



I think you're missing my point about what I, and many people like, and its not something that will always show up in slalom numbers. Its a feel, two cars may preform the same statistically while one is fun doing it and the other isn't. I've driven many great, fun cars and while some of them have been FWD they have not felt as good to me as a good RWD car, none of them. Thats not to say they weren't good to great in their own right, but to me the feel was wrong and the enjoyment of driving them was less. The feel of a vehicle cannot be statistically quantified.

An example could be the Subaru BRZ or Mazda Miata, both relatively underpowered cars from a statistical performance perspective and yet both are lauded for how the feel, how much fun they are to drive. Yes the Focus ST is lauded for much the same reason, and I agree with that, but while it is also fun to drive, it is in a very different manner than the prior two cars.

Simply physics will never allow a FWD or FW biased car to feel as good/fun to many of us as a good RWD car. That doesn't make the good FWD car worthless, just not everybody's cup of tea.



My point exactly, as I posted above 90% will find the cars to be similar while the MKZ may well provide more of what they're looking for. As I also posted above those of us in that other 10% will likely find a lot to love about the MKZ, but driving it is highly unlikely to put the same smile on our faces that the ATS will.

I don't think we're really disagreeing much here, but your homerism appears to make it impossible for you to accept that there are some way in which the MKZ will never be as good.

Road & Track
Two vastly different locations for evaluating a vehicle.
You need to drive the MKZ 300hp AWD model.
Nuff said ther.
 

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...Nuff said ther.

I always get a laugh out of comparing the Z with the ATS
unless
it just aggravates me

like
the LaNeve thread on GMI where they've compared the LincStang with the CLS
when we don't even know if Lincoln's S550(s) will have 2 &or 4 doors yet...
&
think I've come up with my definitive response:
as for its closest competitor...
...imho that'll depend on what the *competition* comes up with


edit- I'd LOVE to hear a FoMoCo official say that!!
 

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the LaNeve thread on GMI where they've compared the LincStang with the CLS
when we don't even know if Lincoln's S550(s) will have 2 &or 4 doors yet...
...or if there ever will be Lincstang..or anything from Lincoln with RWD.
 
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